Jump to content


Quiz Question #16


  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

Poll: Omaha H/L (150 member(s) have cast votes)

Which hand would you rather have?

  1. 2-3-4-9 (32 votes [21.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.33%

  2. A-4-9-J (76 votes [50.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.67%

  3. K-Q-10-9 (42 votes [28.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 DanielNegreanu

DanielNegreanu

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Root Admin
  • 8,278 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas

Posted 22 April 2006 - 01:29 AM

If you were heads up against one player with position, which hand would you rather have? Assume all three hands have exactly one flush draw. You raised in a 7 handed game on the button and the big blind called.
Posted Image

#2 Bubba83

Bubba83

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,425 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sunnyvale, CA
  • Interests:Web Programming<br />Computer Games<br />Beer Tasting<br />Roller Coasters
  • Favorite Poker Game:7 Stud Hi/Lo

Posted 22 April 2006 - 02:10 AM

I'm going with K Q 10 9 for a bunch of different reasons.Reason 1: Since you're up against just 1 opponent, out of the blinds, there is a chance he doesn't have 2 low cards, and this hand gives us a great chance at winning the high. Also, if our opponent has 2 cards to play a low, 3 cards to a low still must come on the board for it to play.Reason 2: We have a bigger flush draw with this hand, except for maybe the A 4 hand but you never really told us which cards were suited, so this hand has the highest chance of having the highest flush draw.Reason 3: All of our cards work together, they are all connected.I don't think it's that important to have a shot at a low in a heads up pot like this where a guy is just defending his blind. If UTG limped or something, and we raised in position, this is completely different, since UTG would almost certainly have a low chance.

#3 respec

respec

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 72 posts

Posted 22 April 2006 - 06:38 AM

2-3-4-9 for a lot of reasons.Firstly there's the old "its a quiz question and its counter-intuitive" angle.But also it makes better lows then A4, it makes more straights/wheels than A4xx, and it has back-up.FWIW, all high hands, such as KQT9 are horrible hands to have HU in a split pot game like O8. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking a bunch of high cards are somehow more powerful heads up, but its a BIG mistake. You need 2-way potential above all else in a game like O8, its easy enough to luck into the best high hand, even with small cards, but you'll NEVER win the low with a high only hand. This is a gigantic disadvantage that a one way hand like KQT9 can never fade against a 2-way hand. If you are going to play something like KQT9 you want everyone in.

#4 FullMontyM1

FullMontyM1

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 748 posts

Posted 22 April 2006 - 07:17 AM

A-4-9-J just feels more coordinated to me than the 2-3-4-9. The 9 is totally useless in the second hand, whereas in the first it is marginally uselful. As for K Q 10 9, we are giving up a lot if we go HU without a low, and will have to dump if the flop doesn't connect, and if the flop marginally connects, we may be faced with situations on the turn where villain is freerolling against us to scoop. A-4-9-J gives us three straight draws, a flush draw, two overcards, and a repectable low draw HU. The problem with this hand is that you might get into trouble with it, if you aren't careful, whereas 2-3-4-9 and K Q 10 9, it's a lot easier to see where you are at. If you feel comfortable about post-flop play HU, and can dump this hand when you only barely connect to the flop, then I think this hand has the strongest HU potential.Monty

#5 Swift_Psycho

Swift_Psycho

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 4,899 posts

Posted 22 April 2006 - 07:45 AM

Absolutely not K-Q-T-9 heads-up. You're a decent underdog to a crappy low mixed bag. Actually, you're an underdog to a random hand.2-3-4-9 has plenty of low potential, but really blows at winning high. The 9 especially in this hand doesn't seem to serve a purpose, except to piss you off. It doesn't help you make any emergency low and is the crappiest of the "high" cards, along with its inability here to help make any kind of straight.I picked A-4-J-9, with solid two-way potential here, especially heads-up.

#6 mrdannyg

mrdannyg

    Cheese Salesman

  • Members
  • 20,264 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 April 2006 - 11:09 AM

I picked A49J over 2349. I don't think the high-only one is a reasonable option.unless our flush is 49 in hand one, our flush draw is much more valuable in hand one over hand two. also, hand two has very little other high potential, whether it be straights or otherwise.hand one's low is almost as good (A4 instead of 23), though the counterfeit protection in two is significantly better.in a multi-way pot, i think hand two wins because of the counterfeit protection, and since it is very difficult for hand one to make the nuts high or low.heads-up though, making a nut hand is less important, and i think hand 1 has much more potential to make a strong hand high, nearly the same low potential and a much better scooping potential.
Long signatures are really annoying.

#7 respec

respec

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 72 posts

Posted 22 April 2006 - 12:42 PM

14 votes and I'm still the only one who got it right huh? :club:

#8 eYank

eYank

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 4,344 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Massapequa, NY
  • Favorite Poker Game:Micro Stakes NLHE

Posted 22 April 2006 - 02:26 PM

View PostBubba83, on Saturday, April 22nd, 2006, 2:10 AM, said:

I'm going with K Q 10 9 for a bunch of different reasons.Reason 1: Since you're up against just 1 opponent, out of the blinds, there is a chance he doesn't have 2 low cards, and this hand gives us a great chance at winning the high. Also, if our opponent has 2 cards to play a low, 3 cards to a low still must come on the board for it to play.Reason 2: We have a bigger flush draw with this hand, except for maybe the A 4 hand but you never really told us which cards were suited, so this hand has the highest chance of having the highest flush draw.Reason 3: All of our cards work together, they are all connected.I don't think it's that important to have a shot at a low in a heads up pot like this where a guy is just defending his blind. If UTG limped or something, and we raised in position, this is completely different, since UTG would almost certainly have a low chance.
yeah i agree with you herethe only problem would be if an Ace came out that wasnt to our flush drawEdit:i didnt notice it was hi/lo but i still dont like having a 9 high i dont know much about omaha but i still like the kq910

#9 playingtowin

playingtowin

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 338 posts

Posted 22 April 2006 - 07:41 PM

A49J any day...hope i'm not wrong again LOL

#10 wsox8

wsox8

    trying to break even at LIFE

  • Members
  • 11,499 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Heights
  • Interests:cheese, apple juice, raisins

Posted 22 April 2006 - 07:56 PM

I would take A-4-9-J

#11 iggymcfly

iggymcfly

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 2,654 posts
  • Location:Missoula, MT
  • Interests:Poker, football, sitting on my ass

Posted 23 April 2006 - 03:28 AM

Heads-up, I think purely high cards have some value, and straights are somewhat less important so I'll go with the A49J. We don't really need to make great lows since our opponent defending his blind will be lucky to have a low draw at all. With 2349, any two pair we make will be ****, and we're not that likely to make a straight. The less coordinated cards in the A49J are compensated for by the times out aces and jacks beat aces and eights or even when our ace high with a jack kicker beats someone who was banking on a low draw. (Yes, it happens occasionally.)
Lady luck's my fuck-buddy.

#12 FullMontyM1

FullMontyM1

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 748 posts

Posted 23 April 2006 - 04:52 AM

A49J is a more well-protected hand. If our opponent makes or is drawing to a much better low on the flop, then we probably have a much better hi hand at this point than he does. If our opponent makes or is drawing to a much better high hand on the flop, then we have probably made or are drawing to a much better low hand than he is.The fact that this hand plays both ways makes it the kind of hand where we can be freerolling for the high or low portion of the pot. The other hands have much less scooping potential.I would rather have A49J, that doesn't mean I wouldn't raise with one of the other two hands to try to steal + have some backups, but they aren't hands I'd be as comfortable with once called.Monty

#13 copernicus

copernicus

    Poker Forum God

  • Members
  • 10,676 posts
  • Interests:Hockey; poker...duh

Posted 23 April 2006 - 04:10 PM

BB has voluntarily called a raise, albeit one from a steal position, and is willing to play the hand out of position. That likely means he has a hand that he doesnt think is likely to get sucked along for a lot of chips..he will flop well or retreat. That to me says he is working on a high hand...a pair, maybe double suited. Any low hand he has would have a higher potential of being quartered if we have a legitimate hand in that direction.If that all makes sense then I would want to be going in with the best low, which I believe is the 2349, because it has a lower chance of being counterfeited than a hand with only two low cards.
___________


Wave upon wave of Demented Avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.



#14 EmOEmU

EmOEmU

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 47 posts

Posted 24 April 2006 - 04:43 AM

i want K-Q-T-9if high cards come they can make the nuts and scoop the pot with no cards to a low on board and they are easy to fold if the flop doesnt fit the handlow cards like 2-3-4-9 wont make the nut straight very often and they can only make the nut low if an ace fallsA-4-9-J with one suit needs exactly 2-3 on board to make the nut low and doesnt have as many straight possibilities. it'll be hard to scoop the pot with this hand

#15 FullMontyM1

FullMontyM1

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 748 posts

Posted 24 April 2006 - 07:47 AM

Obviously, we're not answering the question based on our opponent having one of the three hands listed, but, for reference, running the hands against each other:AJ94 vs KQ109AJ94 scoops~49% of the timewins hi (same as scoop in this case) ~49% of the timewins lo ~44% of the timeKQ109 scoops ~31% of the timewins hi ~51% of the timeSo when faced with a decision between these two-hands, if you are facing the other hand, you want AJ94, since that hand is a coinflip to scoop and will take the lo when it does not scoop 44% of the time. So, with AJ94, you will -not- lose money+win money ~74% of the time. With KQ109, you will -not- lose money+ win money ~51% of the time. KQ109 vs 2349In this case 2349 is a slight favorite to scoop AND has a lowAJ94 vs 2349In this case AJ94 is a 2-1 favorite to scoop and a 2-1 favorite to win hiKQ109 is an -easier- hand to play. You will know where you are at more readily on the flop. But AJ94 is substantially stronger than the other two hands, heads-up. AJ94 is the clear choice.Monty

#16 Swift_Psycho

Swift_Psycho

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 4,899 posts

Posted 24 April 2006 - 08:12 AM

View PostEmOEmU, on Monday, April 24th, 2006, 8:43 AM, said:

i want K-Q-T-9if high cards come they can make the nuts and scoop the pot with no cards to a low on board and they are easy to fold if the flop doesnt fit the handlow cards like 2-3-4-9 wont make the nut straight very often and they can only make the nut low if an ace fallsA-4-9-J with one suit needs exactly 2-3 on board to make the nut low and doesnt have as many straight possibilities. it'll be hard to scoop the pot with this hand
It's heads-up. Making the nuts is no where near as essential as it would be in a huge multi-way pot. K-Q-T-9 is easily the worst hand you'd want to have heads-up here out of the 3 available.As for the bolded quote, it's got the best chance to scoop out of the 3.

#17 ReefAquarium

ReefAquarium

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 10 posts

Posted 24 April 2006 - 09:14 AM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Saturday, April 22nd, 2006, 5:29 AM, said:

If you were heads up against one player with position, which hand would you rather have? Assume all three hands have exactly one flush draw. You raised in a 7 handed game on the button and the big blind called.
Hi Daniel and friends,I met you at the Red Hot Poker Tour in the Tournement of Champions.I'm the guy that blew the chip lead at the final table.I think having an A and having scoop potential is the way to go so I think the the A4J9 is the way ahead in heads up play.I don't have the experience of Daniel Negreanu.So....When examining this sort of question I prefer to use quantitive methods rather than (what for me would be) hand waving arguments.I can't calculate the showdown value in my head.So I cheat and out come the simulations.*Warning if you want to try to consider things in your head for a while first you may consider the rest of this post a spoiler and come back to it later.*First compare A49J vs 2349Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boardscards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV9c Jd Ah 4h 218088 333013 157795 9192 112027 64588 5973 0.6394c 9d 3h 2h 78260 157795 333013 9192 157028 95918 5973 0.361A49J has a EV advantage! .639Now compare A49J vs KQT9Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boardscards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV9c Jd Ah 4h 257827 257827 242057 116 219796 0 0 0.610Tc 9d Kh Qh 147852 242057 257827 116 0 0 0 0.390A49J has a .610 EV advantage!Ok lets compare the two losers 2349 vs KQT9Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boardscards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV9s 4c 3h 2h 172127 172127 327873 0 290341 0 0 0.502Tc 9d Kh Qh 170054 327873 172127 0 0 0 0 0.498Almost dead even.Okay so our thoughts about the showdown value of A49J hand are confirmed.Look at the huge scoop potential when facing the other two hands.Now lets talk about the playability of the hand.Here again A49J is easy to play. Having an A that can go either high or low makes the hand much more easy to read.So again it's A49J by a large margin in showdown and playability.derickPS I'm wondering about my answer to Quiz #14http://www.fullconta...showtopic=55973

#18 EmOEmU

EmOEmU

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 47 posts

Posted 24 April 2006 - 10:20 AM

View PostSwift_Psycho, on Monday, April 24th, 2006, 8:12 AM, said:

It's heads-up. Making the nuts is no where near as essential as it would be in a huge multi-way pot. K-Q-T-9 is easily the worst hand you'd want to have heads-up here out of the 3 available.As for the bolded quote, it's got the best chance to scoop out of the 3.
oh ok i didnt realiseif it were a multi-way pot though then am i right in thinking k-q-t-9 would be the best hand to have?

#19 davezz5

davezz5

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 758 posts
  • Location:u.k

Posted 24 April 2006 - 10:28 AM

dont play Omaha h/l much but A-4-9-J would seem to give a better chance of scooping. Also, as the flush draw wasn't specified, decided i have nut flush draw.
Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.

#20 Swift_Psycho

Swift_Psycho

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 4,899 posts

Posted 24 April 2006 - 11:51 AM

View PostEmOEmU, on Monday, April 24th, 2006, 2:20 PM, said:

oh ok i didnt realiseif it were a multi-way pot though then am i right in thinking k-q-t-9 would be the best hand to have?
Possibly. In a large multi-way pot, it would be the hand that you'd have the best idea of where you stand once the flop comes out. If 2 or 3 low cards come out, you're likely in nasty shape and would get out. If one or no low cards came out, chances are that you'd be holding a much better hand than your opponents, and you could start betting and raising to take down the bloated pot which now has a lot of dead money in it now because of all those low-based hands you are in against which have now turned to garbage.A-4-J-9 is much more preferable in a short-handed situation, but I would agree that I'd prefer K-Q-T-9 in a huge multi-way pot because it would be much easier to play overall quite frankly. In that given situation, the A-4-J-9's inability to make the nuts easily would then become a huge hindrance to playing it.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users