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Answer To Quizz Question #14


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#1 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 01:18 PM

The King high flop is not only a safer flop, but it's one in which it will be easier to define your opponent's hand. With the 7-7-8 and a flush draw present, if someone makes a big bet at the flop you won't know if you have two outs or have the best hand. Plus, even when you do have the best hand you'll lose the pot when your opponent's draw gets there. The King high flop is one which is much easier to play. If anyone puts in money after that flop, you can be pretty sure he isn't drawing and likely can beat your QQ. It makes for an easy fold. The 7-7-8 flop is one in which you are actually in no man's land quite often.
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#2 respec

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 01:39 PM

Yup.Thanks Daniel.

#3 David_Nicoson

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 04:35 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Sunday, April 2nd, 2006, 4:18 PM, said:

The King high flop is not only a safer flop, but it's one in which it will be easier to define your opponent's hand. With the 7-7-8 and a flush draw present, if someone makes a big bet at the flop you won't know if you have two outs or have the best hand. Plus, even when you do have the best hand you'll lose the pot when your opponent's draw gets there. The King high flop is one which is much easier to play. If anyone puts in money after that flop, you can be pretty sure he isn't drawing and likely can beat your QQ. It makes for an easy fold. The 7-7-8 flop is one in which you are actually in no man's land quite often.
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#4 playingtowin

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 07:50 PM

Actually, I don't really agree w/ this though. Wasn't the question...which flop is more profitable in the long run...?? Maybe the K-high flop is more profitable in a game full of undeceptive/straightforward players...isn't there more to playing this type of hand then what you explained??

#5 Optisizer

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 07:25 AM

I'm curious, would the answer hold for a limit game too???

#6 Balloon guy

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 05:57 PM

View Postplayingtowin, on Sunday, April 2nd, 2006, 8:50 PM, said:

Actually, I don't really agree w/ this though. Wasn't the question...which flop is more profitable in the long run...?? Maybe the K-high flop is more profitable in a game full of undeceptive/straightforward players...isn't there more to playing this type of hand then what you explained??
So are you saying with 'sneaky' players, you can do more with QQ? explain
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#7 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 06:37 PM

View PostOptisizer, on Monday, April 3rd, 2006, 8:25 AM, said:

I'm curious, would the answer hold for a limit game too???
Good question, and I think the answer is no. I think in a limit game the QQ qould make more money on the 7-7-8 flop.

View Postplayingtowin, on Sunday, April 2nd, 2006, 8:50 PM, said:

Actually, I don't really agree w/ this though. Wasn't the question...which flop is more profitable in the long run...?? Maybe the K-high flop is more profitable in a game full of undeceptive/straightforward players...isn't there more to playing this type of hand then what you explained??
Actually you are right, I didn't address the answer properly. However, I still believe that the QQ will make more money in the long run on a flop of King hi. Sure, you won't win or lose and huge pots, but you'll steadily earn a bigger profit on that flop than you will on the other flop.
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#8 playingtowin

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 08:33 PM

Tks DN for the insight...always appreciate insight into the game from experienced, successful professionals.

#9 thrillsoft

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 09:13 PM

Thanks Daniel. When's the next question?



#10 David_Nicoson

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 09:41 AM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Monday, April 3rd, 2006, 10:37 PM, said:

Good question, and I think the answer is no. I think in a limit game the QQ qould make more money on the 7-7-8 flop.
So it would follow that it's also the best flop if the stacks are shallow in a no limit game, right? I like the 778 flop regardless, but I think it's more obvious if we can get all-in on the flop.
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#11 Balloon guy

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 03:42 PM

View Postthrillsoft, on Monday, April 3rd, 2006, 10:13 PM, said:

Thanks Daniel. When's the next question?
I believe this is the next question
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#12 ReefAquarium

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 12:50 PM

Hi Daniel!It was a great pleasure to meet you in Toronto at the Red Hot Poker Tournement of Champions.I'm the (idiot) guy that blew the massive chip lead at the final table of the Red Hot Poker Tour for the Protege seat..You asked me what I think about at the table when I pause for long periods.Well this is my thought process.I came to a different conclusion than you.I'd appreciate if you can tell me where I went wrong in my thinking.I agree with the points you made but I think you are much less likely to be beaten if it flops 778I'm thinking the most likely ranges of the hands that your opponents could have if they are solid conservative players are.Preflop: hands distribution.AA Very Unlikely since no raiseKK Again very unlikely since no raise.QQ Only one way to make itJJ 6 waysTT 6 ways99 6 ways88 6 or 3 ways77 1 or 3 ways66-44(unlikely unless deep stacked)AK 16 or 8 waysAQs 2 waysAQo, AJs, ATs, KQs, (if loose players 2nd or 3rd caller in)A9s-A7s (Kinda loose calls unless stacks are deep)33 ( probably nobody has it unless the stack sizes are really deep $1600ish)VS the 778You are in trouble against 77, 88, and A7sThere 1 one way to make 773 ways to make 88 you win about 10% time2 ways to make A7s you win 9% time A7s is kinda loose call....The most likely hand your opponents could have seem to be 77 and 88 and if he's loose A7s.On this flop if the preflop limper checks I'd bet about 3/4 of the pot to give flush draws the wrong odds to call... If you don't think he could call with A7 only about 4 hands that the conservative opponents are likely to have are ahead of me now.I'm making the assumption that your opponents won't call 4bb preflop with any 2 flush cards.VS the K73You are in trouble against KK, AK, KQ, 77, 333 ways to make kk, you'll win < 1%3 ways to make 77, you'll win 8%3 ways to make 33, you'll win 10% but it's kinda loose to call with 33 unless 3rd in and deep stacks.8 ways to make AK ..... you're 8 % to win4 ways to make KQ ..... you're at best 5% to win but KQ is kinda loose to call.Of the above AK and 77 are most likely.There are 11 ways to make likely hands that beat you.Against this K73 if the preflop limper checks, If you bet 3/4 of the pot you'll be in trouble against 11 rather than 4 likely hands.I'd most likely bet half the pot here... I can't see checking this flop.I hate hate hate continuation betting into big fields when and overcard flops but what can you do? I don't want to give a free card to somebody with an A.I don't mind giving a free card if someone has a K but I think you must bet here correct? But it looks like in the long run you will lose much more against the K73 than against the 778.Even if you lose twice as much when the flop comes 778 you'll still be ahead because you'll win much more often.I don't see why you would lose more in the long run with a flop of 778.Thanks for reading this, I'm not trying to be a jerk or imply that I know more than you but I really would like to understand why you think 778 isn't a better flop.Derick

#13 doublemeup

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 08:58 AM

I was right.....again.Go me! :club:

#14 Butcho22

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 10:06 AM

Daniel...I think you are confused.You are giving an answer to the question, "Which flop will you lose the least amount of money on with QQ?"The answer to your question is in fact the 7-7-8 flop. How many times would you expect one of the others to have a K in their hand?How many times would you expect one of the other to have a 7 in their hand?Sure it's easier to get away from the K high flop, but that doesn't make it more profitable.
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