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Razzercise With Hangukmiguk


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#21 checkymcfold

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 02:55 PM

View PostCappy37, on Monday, September 24th, 2007, 4:07 PM, said:

lol. I think you just bought Checky a free week to relax before he puts in the 2nd installment. nh. :club:
haha, that's kinda funny, but in all seriousness, i think razz gets a terrible rap (wrap? which spelling is it here? anyway...) for being a bitch of a game just because hands don't get especially defined until 4th or 5th street most often.yes, this means i make a lot of "omg bad calls" on 4th and 5th very often. :D
QUOTE (Dirtydutch @ Tuesday, December 2nd, 2008, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If there are two things LHE players like, they are weed and pornography. The third would be kittens. LHE does not appear on the list.





#22 Cappy37

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 04:18 PM

View Postcheckymcfold, on Monday, September 24th, 2007, 3:55 PM, said:

haha, that's kinda funny, but in all seriousness, i think razz gets a terrible rap (wrap? which spelling is it here? anyway...) for being a bitch of a game just because hands don't get especially defined until 4th or 5th street most often.yes, this means i make a lot of "omg bad calls" on 4th and 5th very often. :club:
It's an excellent lead-in for the book regardless..The main issue people have with razz is they don't understand the fundamental basics of strategy. Your typical Hold 'Em players will resist the concepts of many live draws on 5th being more powerful than made hands. Plus, like any form of stud, your edge vs. the field is incredible if you are able to process the upcards and understand how truly live (or dead) you are drawing and the potential strength you are up against (A36 is a great hand, but if you see some 2s and 4s out there and no As, 3s, or 6s up and it's bet and popped before it gets to your action..).And then there are the times the K bring in defends his blind and catches fire on his next two cards while you brick.. Really, the beats in Razz are some of the worst you will find in poker. Hold Em cats are used to seeing that 3 outer spike on the river, but that doesn't prepare you for the 4-card trifecta of your fish catching perfect-perfect while you catch brick-brick.I'll defend my cruel mistress until the bitter end though, she's responsible for roughly 100% of my MTT final tables.In summary: I'm in favor of any 57% information game where the bets don't double till fifth, roughly 10-20% of your opponents know how to play, and you aren't sitting there PF shoving everything you have in the middle muttering "I hope he has AQ".
QUOTE (El Guapo @ Thursday, April 30th, 2009, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whatever angle it is, i am pretty sure it will be obtuse.


QUOTE (David_Sklansky @ Thursday, February 12th, 2009, 7:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I give you the gift of arousal and this is how you talk to me?

#23 checkymcfold

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 06:53 PM

View PostCappy37, on Monday, September 24th, 2007, 6:18 PM, said:

It's an excellent lead-in for the book regardless..The main issue people have with razz is they don't understand the fundamental basics of strategy. Your typical Hold 'Em players will resist the concepts of many live draws on 5th being more powerful than made hands. Plus, like any form of stud, your edge vs. the field is incredible if you are able to process the upcards and understand how truly live (or dead) you are drawing and the potential strength you are up against (A36 is a great hand, but if you see some 2s and 4s out there and no As, 3s, or 6s up and it's bet and popped before it gets to your action..).And then there are the times the K bring in defends his blind and catches fire on his next two cards while you brick.. Really, the beats in Razz are some of the worst you will find in poker. Hold Em cats are used to seeing that 3 outer spike on the river, but that doesn't prepare you for the 4-card trifecta of your fish catching perfect-perfect while you catch brick-brick.I'll defend my cruel mistress until the bitter end though, she's responsible for roughly 100% of my MTT final tables.In summary: I'm in favor of any 57% information game where the bets don't double till fifth, roughly 10-20% of your opponents know how to play, and you aren't sitting there PF shoving everything you have in the middle muttering "I hope he has AQ".
eek, you wouldn't actually consider folding here, would you? i don't know that i'd talk about razz in terms of "fundamental basics of strategy," really. i personally prefer to beat people into submission, convincing them that they're behind and then making them fold if they catch bad again. of course it's more complicated than that, but i think that's where someone like hanguk and myself would differ in our general approaches to the game. there are very few spots in which you'll actually come across draws that are ahead of made hands, and other specifically mathematically exploitable edges, so if you really want to crush razz, you have to learn to play above the heads of your opponents. the key to doing that is to do that convincing on the early streets when no one's that far ahead of anyone else, minimizing your "-EV" play and inflating pots to where you can draw to catch up properly on later streets.but i'll get there.... :club:
QUOTE (Dirtydutch @ Tuesday, December 2nd, 2008, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If there are two things LHE players like, they are weed and pornography. The third would be kittens. LHE does not appear on the list.





#24 Cappy37

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 02:02 AM

View Postcheckymcfold, on Monday, September 24th, 2007, 7:53 PM, said:

eek, you wouldn't actually consider folding here, would you?
LOL. No, I wouldn't fold, but I'd certainly need at least a 4th card that made me smile by 5th street.. Remember, in a multi-way pot with a few low hands and a chunk of your outs already dead, you are essentially racing to make the best hand against a pack, and it's highly unlikely you are going to see enough players catch bad that you have any way of taking the pot without showdown, no matter how good it appears you "catch".. I'm a micro tourney player. In this type of situation I'm not only going to have trouble getting anyone to fold on 4th no matter how good I catch, I'm fully expecting the Queen bring-in to come along and add to the carnage (re: build the pot). It's a madhouse... I don't even know how to describe it. It takes untill about the 4th time you see a blind defense when you stop chuckling and realize these fools are ready to gambool.It makes your life essentially hell, because it's one thing to make one guy pay a "bad price" to draw to their hand, it's another entirely to figure out what to do with three guys who you pretty much know are "committed" because they caught a 9.In short, micro tourneys can give you really nasty habits that one wouldn't want to carry into actual ring games. I think we can agree on that;)

Quote

i don't know that i'd talk about razz in terms of "fundamental basics of strategy," really. i personally prefer to beat people into submission, convincing them that they're behind and then making them fold if they catch bad again. of course it's more complicated than that, but i think that's where someone like hanguk and myself would differ in our general approaches to the game. there are very few spots in which you'll actually come across draws that are ahead of made hands, and other specifically mathematically exploitable edges, so if you really want to crush razz, you have to learn to play above the heads of your opponents. the key to doing that is to do that convincing on the early streets when no one's that far ahead of anyone else, minimizing your "-EV" play and inflating pots to where you can draw to catch up properly on later streets.but i'll get there.... :club:
Oh, I came to the party already assuming you'd play Razz firing with both barrells like you would in Stud hi, just with a few extra jukes in your step. My line of thinking was you'd attack the "book" aspect by starting off with starting hand reqs, absorbing upcard information, controlling pot size, and tidbits like that.If I was going to be greedy, I'd beg you for a cliffnotes section on tournament strat for razz and O8B. That's my current bottleneck. Anyone with 5 minutes of free time on their hands can tell you "how to play" O8B/Razz/Stud/Stud8 ring games, it's mixing the nuances with a tourney format that really be something that you simply don't see anywhere. People will discuss NLHE tourney strat to death with you, but you aren't going to get a lot of feedback on the value of high only hands in late position once you are deep ITM in a O8B tourney. Razz is another beast in tourney format as well, because it doesn't overly lend itself to "chip accumulation" by nature. You simply don't see blinds being stolen (and/or not defended!, in micro donkaments) until after 4 or 5 blind increases. You identify the ATM's early and isolate them when you can, but in my experience I'll end up with thrice the chip average at first break half the time and my original stack half the time, with little rhyme or reason to it.Boy can I ramble or what?
QUOTE (El Guapo @ Thursday, April 30th, 2009, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whatever angle it is, i am pretty sure it will be obtuse.


QUOTE (David_Sklansky @ Thursday, February 12th, 2009, 7:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I give you the gift of arousal and this is how you talk to me?

#25 HangukMiguk

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 03:58 PM

I got this on lock starting next week.


#26 checkymcfold

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 06:14 PM

View PostHangukMiguk, on Thursday, November 1st, 2007, 6:58 PM, said:

I got this on lock starting next week.
someone is obviously disapproving of me teaching everyone else how to be lagtards. :club:
QUOTE (Dirtydutch @ Tuesday, December 2nd, 2008, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If there are two things LHE players like, they are weed and pornography. The third would be kittens. LHE does not appear on the list.





#27 HangukMiguk

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 02:23 PM

View Postcheckymcfold, on Thursday, November 1st, 2007, 10:14 PM, said:

someone is obviously disapproving of me teaching everyone else how to be lagtards. :club:
YOU'RE FREAKING RIGHT I DO!that's my job :D


#28 checkymcfold

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 02:24 PM

View PostHangukMiguk, on Friday, November 2nd, 2007, 5:23 PM, said:

YOU'RE FREAKING RIGHT I DO!that's my job :D
LOL, glad to have you take over, sir. i'm far too lazy to commit to anything, anyway :club:
QUOTE (Dirtydutch @ Tuesday, December 2nd, 2008, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If there are two things LHE players like, they are weed and pornography. The third would be kittens. LHE does not appear on the list.





#29 HangukMiguk

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 02:28 PM

View Postcheckymcfold, on Friday, November 2nd, 2007, 6:24 PM, said:

LOL, glad to have you take over, sir. i'm far too lazy to commit to anything, anyway :club:
ty. It may have to wait until i get the entire book done, but you will see my full effort very soon.Thanks for the effort on putting stuff up checky, much appreciated. For that, you have first dibs on proofreading. scottyno and dereeekho obv. get it too, since they're OG razztards, but guaranteed you guys get some good stuff.


#30 gfdsa146

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 05:45 PM

hey...wat the...isnt Hanguk supposed to be done with FCP?

#31 HangukMiguk

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 12:28 PM

View Postgfdsa146, on Friday, November 2nd, 2007, 9:45 PM, said:

hey...wat the...isnt Hanguk supposed to be done with FCP?
isn't everybody?


#32 onlyme386

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 04:36 PM

View PostHangukMiguk, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 12:28 PM, said:

isn't everybody?
if we were smart
s

#33 qyayqi

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 06:58 AM

i look forward to the book. maybe i'll even learn how to play this.
qyayqi
railing 101 video

crush their dreams like aluminum cans.
then take them in for recycling.
5 cents a dream, man.

#34 Cappy37

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 12:31 PM

I'm hoping there will be pop-up pictures in Hang's book!
QUOTE (El Guapo @ Thursday, April 30th, 2009, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whatever angle it is, i am pretty sure it will be obtuse.


QUOTE (David_Sklansky @ Thursday, February 12th, 2009, 7:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I give you the gift of arousal and this is how you talk to me?

#35 HangukMiguk

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 02:11 PM

View PostCappy37, on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007, 4:31 PM, said:

I'm hoping there will be pop-up pictures in Hang's book!
i doubt i'll put in pop-up pictures. but the cover will more than make up for it.although i will take this suggestion into consideration.


#36 Frez

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 04:49 PM

View PostCappy37, on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007, 1:31 PM, said:

I'm hoping there will be pop-up pictures in Hang's book!
Somebody into the sauce early today?
Progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things. (Robert Heinlein).

#37 HangukMiguk

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 10:24 AM

View PostFrez, on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007, 8:49 PM, said:

Somebody into the sauce early today?
Define "early."


#38 Frez

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 01:15 PM

View PostHangukMiguk, on Wednesday, November 7th, 2007, 11:24 AM, said:

Define "early."
Point taken. His post was at 1:31PM, so at least it was after noon!
Progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things. (Robert Heinlein).

#39 Cappy37

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 10:45 AM

View PostHangukMiguk, on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007, 2:11 PM, said:

i doubt i'll put in pop-up pictures. but the cover will more than make up for it.although i will take this suggestion into consideration.
I'm getting visions of Richard Simmons holding a pair of bricks for the cover...Maybe it's good that I'm not involved....
QUOTE (El Guapo @ Thursday, April 30th, 2009, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whatever angle it is, i am pretty sure it will be obtuse.


QUOTE (David_Sklansky @ Thursday, February 12th, 2009, 7:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I give you the gift of arousal and this is how you talk to me?

#40 Cappy37

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 10:45 AM

View PostCappy37, on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007, 12:31 PM, said:

I'm hoping there will be pop-up pictures in Hang's book!

View PostFrez, on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007, 4:49 PM, said:

Somebody into the sauce early today?
Who doesn't enjoy a good book of pop up pictures? It's all about marketing, baby.
QUOTE (El Guapo @ Thursday, April 30th, 2009, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whatever angle it is, i am pretty sure it will be obtuse.


QUOTE (David_Sklansky @ Thursday, February 12th, 2009, 7:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I give you the gift of arousal and this is how you talk to me?




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