checkymcfold, on Monday, September 24th, 2007, 7:53 PM, said:
eek, you wouldn't actually consider folding here, would you?
LOL. No, I wouldn't fold, but I'd certainly need at least a 4th card that made me smile by 5th street.. Remember, in a multi-way pot with a few low hands and a chunk of your outs already dead, you are essentially racing to make the best hand against a pack, and it's highly unlikely you are going to see enough players catch bad that you have any way of taking the pot without showdown, no matter how good it appears you "catch".. I'm a micro tourney player. In this type of situation I'm not only going to have trouble getting anyone to fold on 4th no matter how good I catch, I'm fully expecting the Queen bring-in to come along and add to the carnage (re: build the pot). It's a madhouse... I don't even know how to describe it. It takes untill about the 4th time you see a blind defense when you stop chuckling and realize these fools are ready to gambool.It makes your life essentially hell, because it's one thing to make one guy pay a "bad price" to draw to their hand, it's another entirely to figure out what to do with three guys who you pretty much know are "committed" because they caught a 9.In short, micro tourneys can give you really nasty habits that one wouldn't want to carry into actual ring games. I think we can agree on that;)
i don't know that i'd talk about razz in terms of "fundamental basics of strategy," really. i personally prefer to beat people into submission, convincing them that they're behind and then making them fold if they catch bad again. of course it's more complicated than that, but i think that's where someone like hanguk and myself would differ in our general approaches to the game. there are very few spots in which you'll actually come across draws that are ahead of made hands, and other specifically mathematically exploitable edges, so if you really want to crush razz, you have to learn to play above the heads of your opponents. the key to doing that is to do that convincing on the early streets when no one's that far ahead of anyone else, minimizing your "-EV" play and inflating pots to where you can draw to catch up properly on later streets.but i'll get there....
Oh, I came to the party already assuming you'd play Razz firing with both barrells like you would in Stud hi, just with a few extra jukes in your step. My line of thinking was you'd attack the "book" aspect by starting off with starting hand reqs, absorbing upcard information, controlling pot size, and tidbits like that.If I was going to be greedy, I'd beg you for a cliffnotes section on tournament strat for razz and O8B. That's my current bottleneck. Anyone with 5 minutes of free time on their hands can tell you "how to play" O8B/Razz/Stud/Stud8 ring games, it's mixing the nuances with a tourney format that really be something that you simply don't see anywhere. People will discuss NLHE tourney strat to death with you, but you aren't going to get a lot of feedback on the value of high only hands in late position once you are deep ITM in a O8B tourney. Razz is another beast in tourney format as well, because it doesn't overly lend itself to "chip accumulation" by nature. You simply don't see blinds being stolen (and/or not defended!, in micro donkaments) until after 4 or 5 blind increases. You identify the ATM's early and isolate them when you can, but in my experience I'll end up with thrice the chip average at first break half the time and my original stack half the time, with little rhyme or reason to it.Boy can I ramble or what?
Whatever angle it is, i am pretty sure it will be obtuse.
I give you the gift of arousal and this is how you talk to me?