Important reads:

We're playing five or six handed live. This game does not usually play this short, but players are getting chopped up and wiped out all over the place, because they're all terrible.

Larry is not very good. He's way too loose preflop, but he's been getting a LOT better over the last few weeks, mostly because I'm giving him advice to piss off the other players. He's gone from too loose-passive, to still-too-loose-but-more-aggressive over the last month. He over-values some one-way hands, but does a good job forcing draws to call two-cold in medium-to-big pots. He knows I'm the best player at the table. He won't make shut-out semi-bluff raises to promote second-best hands that often. If he's raising, he generally has the goods (or thinks he does).

Bea is awful. She's a sweetheart, but she's ultra-loose, calls down with any draw, and hopes to spike miracle 3-outers and the like, especially in big pots. She'll usually telegraph her hand.


Okay, so, comments on all streets. I felt like the hand played itself, but I wanted to make sure I'm not spewing anywhere or something.


One limp to me in the cutoff. I raise with Ad4h9d9h. Larry calls two cold on the button. Small blind folds. Bea calls in the big. Limper calls.

Four way action to the flop, with 4BB in the pot.

FLOP 3c7dTd

Check, check, I bet, Larry raises, Bea calls, I 3-bet, Larry calls, Bea calls. The limper folded in here somewhere, I dunno.

TURN (big pot) 3c7dTd 2h

Bea checks, I bet, Larry raises, Bea calls, I 3-bet, Larry caps, Beatrice thinks for awhile, and calls while begging aloud for one card.

RIVER 3c7dTd 2h 8x

Bea checks, I check, Larry Bets, Beatrice calls, I raise, Larry calls.



Anybody have any problems with this?



Wang

you are way, way more aggressive than me (and i play a lot of shorthanded live O8).

i think i read B for the high and larry for the same low. i don't see the value in the c/r on the river.

i think i play preflop the same or just limp it, and i think i bet/call all streets. however, now that i've been playing live a lot more i've remembered feelings you just get in situations where you read two villains hands perfectly, and maybe this is one of those hands.

One thing I'm certain of is that Larry isn't going to town on this board with just nut-low. He's much more likely to have flopped a set here (top set given his turn line), and I was drawing very live to his half of the pot.

Bea could have the nut-low, but 45, A5, and some kind of fucked up draw are all just as likely. I'm pretty sure my equity against her range is hugely, hugely positive. I might be getting quartered, but it's less likely than me NOT getting quartered. Toss in my nut-diamond draw, and I feel like my pot equity- even on the turn- is just so much higher than anybody else's.

But this is the most aggressive I've gotten in a hand in a long time. Seemed like the perfect situation against the perfect players to go nuts.


Preflop is one of my biggest concerns, actually. Give me the rationale for limping here, as opposed to raising. I don't know anything.


Wang

preflop is fine if you're playing against tards. 99 is a decent helping pair for a4, and you're doublesooted and in pos as well.

postflop is goot. againt players like you've described, you are indeed probably good for half more than screwed for 1/4, but remember that the breakeven point for those 3way spots is being right 1/3 of the time. but being more passive to reduce variance is ok, too

The players are semi-tards. The reason I raised is a few-fold.

1) I'm not getting punished. Ever. I'm not getting 3-bet except by Larry, except for a few ultra-premium holdings, and NEVER by Bea in the big. Limper also never 3-bets, here.

2) My preflop raise means I'll often get to showdown more cheaply if I want to. Larry will be a flopped nut low, but interpret my preflop raise as something pretty strong, and- again- not punish me. Bea will probably believe whatever I want her to believe.

3) I have SOME post-flop fold equity. Bea plays bad in the BB, and will fold the turn if she doesn't have a big piece. Larry might call me down with a marginal holding, but he won't make me pay to get there often enough if I flop some kind of semi-solid draw.

4) Everyone sucks. In LO8, I've decided building pots with solid relative position is +EV for me at this table, because the hands that are coming in with me are ultra mega trashy. If I can get the pot 2 or 3 handed, there's a solid chance there will be some dead money, and I'll get to showdown a pair of nines for high, and some kind of low that might be good to scoop. Regardless, everyone sucks so bad that- when in doubt- I bloat the pot because the hands I rate to get called by are so trashy that my hot/cold/absolute equity in the pot is break-even at worst.


Does this seem like sound reasoning? Or am I missing something?

Wang


PS- Variance here doesn't concern me that much. Since I'm learning, I WANT to put money into the pot in marginal spots, just to see what happens, if that makes sense. Putting myself in tricky, troubling spots with big draws- inflating pots with any kind of equity edge, for example- is only going to help me figure out whether I'm leaking or missing value. I'm sure as I play more and higher, I'll slow down a little, but for now variance is not an issue. Yet

wang, your thinking is generally good, but be careful with regard to your last point--there's always a fine line between inflating pots and spewing or even giving idiots proper odds on their crap draws, no matter how bad the villains are.

as for the reaching showdown cheaply thing, that's mostly a hold em concept. it can apply to o8 as well, but mostly in hu spots where you have a gut feeling you're getting quartered fairly often and a villain may be setting up a turn raise. raising preflop leads to you getting donkbet in o8 a LOT more in hold em, and rarely can lead to a cheap showdown as planned. people love donkbetting bad flops for a2.

Yeah, I come from an all-hold'em background, so perhaps I'm misapplying this concept. I think it ties in with my other points, though, here. Other players are going to be less likely to fire with nut-low or something like A3/23 if I boost it preflop. In general- in the game I play- I've found that preflop aggression slows most players down unless they nail the flop pretty hard. Even then, I'm only getting check/raised by the most premium of holdings. Any out-of-the-ordinary aggression from an otherwise passive player, and I'm mucking my cards and going to the bathroom or something.

I've noticed the easiest way to prey on weak players in this game is to play to their massive fear of getting quartered. They'll play solid hands too slow, because they're always going to project my hand as the one that has them in the worst shape. Raising preflop has the added bonus of slowing down low-only hands that have me crushed.


Wang