PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, SB folds.

Flop: (9 SB) , , (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (10.50 BB) (4 players)
Hero checks...

folding obv.

100% standard?

Why raise with this OOP?

Standard lead on the flop....

On the turn I would either b/f if the others are the standard "gotta see the turn for 1 sb in a raised pot" type players or c/f and give up now.


ZenBrothers

I do disagree with the value part but it is not "out in left field" type play, I would not do it myself though.


and I did miss that the turn created the naked flush draw so yes I too would call a single bet.


I guess I would have played this one a little more passive.....hard to say if I would have even see the turn.



ZenBrothers

It is a value raise.

Stove KJs vs whatever range you figure these loose passive donkeys will limp with.

Check/fold the flop though.

I'm meh about the preflop raise with KJs too. I like to raise with it if I am one of the first into the pot, but not so much after the 4 limpers were ahead of you.

Because you did raise preflop, I think the cont. bet on the flop is fine, you are trying to represent the A, but I'm not sure you are ever going to get all 4 other players to fold.

If the turn wasn't a spade, I would have check folded the turn. Because the turn was a spade, why not continue to be the aggressor and bet it ? If the other 3 players still in keep calling, you have odds to be aggressive with your flush draw and you could really surprise them with it if you hit it on the river.

Yes, river is most definitely a check/fold.

I stand corrected......I just checked my SSHE bible and see that the KJs is a standard raise from the blinds.....


So then I probably would have bet the flop.

But with the flush draw appearing on the turn, I would have lead again and then re-eval the river (it would truely depend on who was left by the end)


I thank you for the hole plug.....


ZenBrothers

I like it all. The only debatable thing is the flop imo, but Id still bet it. B/c the turn is bad cause 4ways on the turn we better show down a real hand cause were gonna get called down by someone.

what if one of the raises and only one other calls?
What if only 2 call?

I doubt they all fold.

Zach, I think with this flop it's ok to bet and represent the Ace, the pot is big.
And it's a draw light flop

raising preflop there is fine.

i think a strong case can be made for check/folding that flop.

The PF raise with KJs out of position is ridiculously bad. Sorry, but it is. It's -EV without a doubt.

Easy fold on the river, only good thing was the turn call...

I'm just not sure it's standard after 4 limpers.

really?
ridiculously?

I'd say it was at least a wash in a specific hand and in contect of playing awhile at the table, a + move

I guess it's hard to prove it from either side.

What does Sklansky say? I don't have SSHE unpacked

I absolutely love the preflop raise.
There is so much "hidden" value in it.
And so many people don't appreciate this.

Against 4 limpers, we are hardly ever dominated.
Because I just don't see AK, AJ, KQ limping here.

The more limpers there are, the less fold equity our raise gives us.
But the more limpers there are, the more value there is in the raise.

The key behind the preflop raise is that we are, by no means, obligated to fire an out-of-position continuation bet into a mass of opponents on the flop.
So if the board comes 753, we just check.
No sweat.
But if we hit, we lead out into a large pot that we are likely favored in.
Thus we really only risked one bet (the preflop raise) while gaining numerous bets from all the worse limping hands.


Against so many opponents, our postflop fold equity is not good.
This is why I don't recommend betting most flops.
But the Ace on a draw-lite flop presents us with an opportunity.
Our out-of-position preflop raise against 4 opponents was a big sign of strength.
And since no one is holding overcards to the board (and thus don't have much to draw towards), if villains do not have the Ace, they will often fold.
So I lead this particular flop as OP did.



Check-folding certain flops when we make these "speculative" preflop raises is ok.
But this is not one of those times.

The pot is big.
Our preflop raise was not done for fold-equity. But it did give us a little bit of it.
And this is a flop that enhances it.
Check-folding here is too weak.



When ALL villains call the flop, our fold equity becomes nil.
So I see no reason to bet again on the turn.
Though we are never folding due to our draw.


Very well played.

--CM

Haha, that's absurd. With four limpers, the UTG+1 player declined to isolate the UTG player, and the first player in from MP decided not to shut out the blinds, but the button, and get it three handed with 2 likely-weak players in position. Then the SB completes with what rates to be a random hand. In this case, our hand has so much value over the field that your suggestion not to raise for value is ultra-weak. K-hi might be the best hand, and even if it's not, we flop a draw with equity often enough to make it worthwhile. Not to mention that a SECOND best hand here probably has enough equity against the 3 weaker hands to warrant a value raise.

In fact, it's really not all that close, brother.


It would be nice to see a free turn, here, since there are a lot of cards that sneakily improve our hand (a ten or spade for example), but I'm leaning towards betting in the hopes that we can drop at least two players, and get bad/weak calls from the other two. I really don't love a check/fold line on the flop getting whatever odds we're getting, since our runner-runner outs might make a call almost justifiable.

Wang