Okay, I've only been play LO8 for a little bit, but I'm trying to get better with the few resources I have. I play in the same live game with the same lineup- minus a few random players or exceptions- a few times a week. There are two pretty good players, one okay player, me, and 4... just horrible players. We play 8 handed. I'm seen as relatively solid, and I have control over the bad players.

This hand involves Joe. Joe is a dealer, and sucks at this game. He's aggressive enough, but simply way too loose. I'm talking 50+% of his hands, loose, which is the norm for this game. If he raises it up preflop in late position, he has A2xx. If he raises it up in early position he has A23, or maybe A2wheelx. He could have AAxx, though, too. I haven't seen him play enough to know for sure, but he seems like the kind of guy that doesn't understand AAxx can be trash.

This hand takes place about 2 hours into the game, so everyone's nice and loosened up.

UTG folds, Joe raises it up UTG+1, Bad Calling Station Calls, Second Calling Station Calls, Third Calling Station Calls, I call on the Button with Ah2h5cKc.

(I should've 3-bet here, but I was goofing around with Joe, and told him if my first card was 4 or below I'd call the raise cold. It was the Ah, and I said "Caaall."

Flop:

5s 8h Js

Joe bets, gets two callers, and I call.

(I'm pretty sure Joe has A2, or AA and a spade draw. I don't want Joe 3-betting and chasing away the action from the live ones, who could be calling down with A3, A4, etc. There are 2 other players in the pot with randomish hands, and they aren't going anywhere.)


Turn: 8d

Joe bets, call, call, I call, again.

(The other two players in the pot do not have eights or full houses, as they would've closed their eyes and raised.)

River: 9c

So I whiffed completely. Oooooops. Joe bets, unexpected fold, unexpected fold, and it's to me. The pot is pretty big, I think there are exactly 14 BB in the pot after the rake.


Can I make this call with bottom pair? This might be really obvious one way or another, but I've thought about this hand alot over the past few days.


Wang

Calling is the worst play here IMO. I think you either have to raise or fold, and I'd lean towards folding. But I think your mistake was on the turn though, why not check raise and represent an 8? By what you said your reads on the table were, I think it's an easy raise in that spot.

You already announced to Joe that you were going to play the hand if your first card was below a 4, so if he believes you, then you could easily have an 8 in your hand. If Joe is just drawing to the low then he'll call the bet, and you know the 2 calling stations don't have an 8 but they stink so they're probably calling for one more bet. Now when the low bricks on the river you've set yourself up for a steal, as everyone believes you have the high hand.

And if Joe repops you then by what you said you can put him on A-A-x-x and at the absolute minimum and fold the hand there or call one more bet, and if you miss your low, know you're folding.

i disagree with handsfactor. to make a raise a better play than calling, you need to be folding a better hand more often than you're beating a worse hand by calling, and i don't think that's the case here, though i suppose i could be persuaded otherwise (actually more than just "more often" since the raise costs you two bets).

wang, i very often call in this spot against players like you've described joe. you don't need to be good very often to make that profitable.


as for previous streets, i raise the flop despite your concerns. if the others are really that bad, they call a LOT, and if not, well, you have such a ginormous hand on that flop that you're going to be in good shape either HU or multiway.

raising the turn is way too fancy for this sort of game, imho, but it's a perfectly reasonable OCCASIONAL but RARE bluff against the right players. calling it a generally correct play, though, is serious spewing.

I like the play here as well, but yes trash it on the river!

Yeah, my flop call was probably a disaster. I was pretty sure Joe had A2, and didn't want him 3-betting and crushing the field, especially with a hand that has me in serious trouble. In retrospect, my reasons for making the river call make raising the flop pretty obvious.

Check raising the turn would be pretty bad, because my fold equity on the river if a bad card comes off would be something like 0%.

The more I think about it, the more I like my river call. I was certain Joe has A2xx 100% of the time, and A2wheelX alot, too.

I also thought about firing the river, and think it might've been correct 3-handed, forcing Joe to make a big call with a player I know- but he might not know- is obviously on a draw behind him.

Anyway, thanks for the responses guys. I'm going to start bringing some trouble hands in here, since I want to learn the game.


Wang

i actually misread your hand and thought you had a spade draw as well. with just bottom pair and a low draw, you definitely want to isolate here. you're in very, very good shape against joe's range unless he holds AA AND a good low draw. against AA, you're basically looking at 8 outs twice (2 5s, 3 Ks, 3 2s (though he has a redraw against 6 of them), and with your nut low draw, you have some backup just in case you whiff out. AA2x is the only hand in that part of his range that has you crushed. moreover, raising the flop in these sorts of spots often gets villains off unimproved AAxx hands by the river unless he makes a low as well.

if he holds A2, you're ahead of him for 3/4 most of the time here, but if you're not, he'll 3bet you for sure and you'll get that info on a cheap street (unless he decides to go passive on you, which seems unlikely from your description of him).

all in all, these are great sorts of spots to get people who don't understand the game to think you're a total ****ing retard if you end up showing the hand down. you have a decent amount of fold equity, and if that part doesn't come to fruition, you're hardly far behind your opponent's range.

Yeah, this was my semi-backwards reasoning for calling the river, but if I'd been thinking properly, I'd've raised the flop for the EXACT same reasons.

Any of you guys have any "more-than-the-basics" resources I could get my hands on to learn this game? Where are the best O8 games online?


Wang

AP has great 2/4 full ring LO8, if that's what you're looking for.

I don't play much higher than that cuz frankly, I don't know anything about O8, but I've seen decent looking games up to 10/20, but they are a much less frequent.

that's a pretty big hero call, but it's sexy.

i think AA is content enough to check/call here most of the time, that the only hand that makes sense is A28 or something similar.

i don't like the flop raise cause we aint isolating ****, but i play fr LO8 pretty passively (compared to checky at least )

I can't belive anyone would seriously considering calling with bottom pair. Joe only raises preflop with A2 or AA apparently. Obv AA beats you, and A2 with PP bigger than a 5 has hero beat, any J, 8, 9. 67 straights, so does 7T or QT. How are you beat? Let me count the ways...

Now, if Wang did call and win, I'll need precise directions on how to get to where ever this game was played, and specific times that we can expect Joe to be there!

How about this. What if the flop card was a 4 instead of a five, eliminating some of the more likely straight draws? (It actually might have been, but I don't remember).


Regardless, don't you think his river bet is a little weird? It seems like it's just a monster suicide bluff on a board that bricked out often enough to make a call worthwhile.


Anyway, I called and Joe said. "Good call."

I said, "What does that mean? Because I don't have much."

Joe: "I don't have anything. Ace-King, I can't win."

Wang: "I have a pair of fives."

Dealer: "Fives full of eights."

Wang: "No. I play Ace-five. Eights up. Eights and fives."

Joe: "Wow. Man, fuk u."


At this point, just flips his busted draw over in disgust, and just before the dealer rakes his cards towards the muck, I roll my eyes and say, "Joe, you have an eight. You have three eights. Nice hand."

Joe: "Aw man. I didn't even know!"


Nice hand, Joe.


I talked about this hand for about an hour- off and on- with an Omaha player whose game I respect, and we came to the conclusion while the call might not have been great, my reasoning for making the call was good, and my ability to recognize odd bluffing scenarios, then be willing to make a weird call to snap off a bluff means my game is getting a little better. Which I kinda agree with.

Anyway, thanks.

that's cuz you're a goddamn *****.

nh, wang. the discussion you had with your guy is an important one. picking off strong draw river bluffs is one of the REALLY important things to learn as you move up.

ve

Next time keep your goddamn mouth shut.

I think you are beating yourself up over this because in hindsight you're thinking a raise may have pushed him off his busted draw.

Even a guy who thinks he's bluffing a monster here is likely to have enough to beat bottom pair the vast majority of the time.


Now, those directions please...

No. There's nothing more despicable than a player willing to profit from a dealer error. It's every single player's ethical obligation to point out ANY mistake at the table, ESPECIALLY if it's to his detriment.

If somebody at my table let a hand finish, then pointed out that the money went to the wrong place, I'd dismantle him right there.


Wang

Naw, I never thought about raising. I'll just be spewing off chips if he's got ANYTHING. He'd have to make a crying call there. He's not good enough to fold any semi-legitimate holding.

That being said, a desperation river bluff really couldn't be ahead of my hand even CLOSE to often enough to make a call incorrect there if I think he is bluffing. I'm basically playing against 2 random cards (and it's more likely something like 1.7 random cards, given his likely raising hands). Even if he is ahead 75+% of the time with some trash holding, I'm getting such a good price I could beat him into the pot.

Finally, I'll never give you directions to this game. Ever. I'm beating it up at too big a rate to risk any more solid players coming in, even if I think the point you make above is slightly dense. I'm the worst Omaha player ever, but I'm a winner here, and I'd like to keep it that way...

But if you want to come to the 5-card double flop Omaha game we play afterwards, you're more than welcome.


Wang

My bad I got mixed up between threads and thought you had considered a raise here.

And yes, it's a huge pot so you only need to right occasionally to make the call pay off. But it is only going to be right with bottom pair occasionally.

But who am I to say - I scooped a pot tonight when I checked the river with a low only hand, and took the high also with AK high.

They play that in the ultra loose 5-10 game I sit in sometimes. For some bizarre reason they call it double sneakers

The regular five-card double-flop Omaha Eight or Better game I play in is easily the juiciest game I've ever been to. There are some good players in it, but they're all doing it to unwind, and start playing like goofballs and stuff. Plus, some of the good players still can't make good decisions based on likely pot equity, etc, because they don't understand alot of the mathematical hand-range stuff.

It's so much fun, but really sucks when you get high and have to figure out what the hell is going on.


Wang