Falwell or scram?

I am completely ambivalent towards Jerry Fallwell. I don't care about him one bit but sometimes he annoys me (don't care about gays either, just to keep that fresh in everyones minds.)

However, I will say that making people explain themselves when their statements seem to be rooted in very weak premises isn't "trolling". It's kinda like a duty held by everyone with an IQ over 120.

There is nothing "patriotic" about the Patriot Act. Whenever I hear some retarded right winger blathering on about how it's "needed to stop terrorism", I question that.When you dig about one inch deep, you see that they really have nothing there to support this belief other than their inherent love for George W. Bush and since the bill was a byproduct of him, they mindlessly support it.

Conversely, there are similar things that exist with the anti-religion camp. It isn't that any of you can really explain why Fallwell is a bad man. Oh, sure, he may not like gays, he may have said some stupid stuff during his life but pound for pound, the same degree of stridency doesn't exist when Jesse Jackson calls NYC "hymietown". When you dig one inch deep here, you find that the people who express such disdain for Fallwell really aren't doing so based on anything strong or particularly compelling. No, they're doing so because he happens to be a theist, they're atheists and so they try to couch their associative disdain with whatever little fragments of information might distract away from the fact that their hatred is based on emotion.

"Well, he hated gays."
"Well, he said something in 1952 that could've been conceived as racist if you hold it under a microscope and ask a jury of 12 blacks..."

It's kinda lame to watch.
If you hate Jerry Fallwell, ask yourself why. If you find yourself running to wikipedia to cobble up the answer, that means you should probably be questioning how you operate.

ZING!!!

I don't wish death upon anyone, but the world is a better place without him. People like Falwell, Pat Buchanan, Benny Hinn, and Billy Graham are what's wrong with the USA. They trick people with their fear of god to do things that are hateful, bigoted, racist, anti-semitic, and the like. Not to mention the millions of dollars these people have raped the citizens of this country out of. They are nothing but thieves, bigots, and hate mongers...period. No good has ever come from them.

You keep completely ignoring my main point, which is also pretty lame to watch. I'll state it (again) very simply for you.

He hates large groups of people who have never done anything to him or anyone else. Not only that, but he very publically says that others should hate them too.

As for the wiki thing, I already explained that. It's a description of his life which I followed up with my explanation for why I think the aforementioned descrition proves that he is a bad person (again, stop putting the word 'hate' in my mouth).

Face it, you've lost this one. The fact that you continue to ignore my main point only proves that you've got nothing...give it up. As in the only other thread where we've had a discussion, I win. I'm done looking at and posting in this thread, since there's no point beating a dead horse.

I guess I do like Socratic characters.

I don't wish death upon anyone, but the world is a better place without Jews. People like Jews are what's wrong with the USA.
They trick people with their fear of god to do things that are hateful, bigoted, racist and the like- not to mention the millions of dollars these people have raped the citizens of this country out of. They are nothing but thieves, bigots and hate-mongers... period. No good has ever come from them.

Ok, scram. I want your take on my answer.

The man used his fame to spread hate and bigotry and blasphemy. That makes him a bad person.
Nowhere did I say, I hate him.

And he didn't just say something dumb in 1952. Try shortly after 9/11/2001.

I WIN, BUT I'M LEAVING!

LOL @ internet debates.
Whenever the questions get too pointed and you find yourself unable to answer with any degree of cogency, declare yourself the 'winner' and then refuse to participate any further.

I cant wait for tribal council tonight. Scrams ass is getting voted off the Island for sure.

Why do you call him a troll when he just asked for somebody to back up a statement with some reasons for why they feel that way? Seriosly...he's making you guys look like idiots. It's like you have your fingers in your ears and are screaming nonsense hoping he'll go away. Everybody here should be smarter than that.

I think scram is one of the best posters on this on this board. I've never seen him make a post that is not well thought out or lacking in wisdom.

Then why dont you marry him then!?

looks like we found another bigot to add to the list

The man has certain religious beliefs that happen to view homosexuality as a grave sin. His comments in that regard aren't too surprising.
Don't ever seem to recall him ever "spreading blasphemy", but then again it isn't like I've ever kept up with the guy.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Looks like I found another idiot to add to the list.

How is he a bigot?

please explain

Edit: I thought he quoted me at first...but really, are you that dense?

hmmmm....I don't know....let me see....hmmmm....oh yeah



pretty bigoted statement or anti-semitic...you choose

I get that you are joking but you're analogy does not work.Jews are a race of people who are born that way, there is nothing they can do to change that, so to lump them together with a profound hatred is obviously silly. Religious nuts like Falwell have full control over who they are, yet still manage to be dogmatic, close-minded assholes that damage society as a whole.

brag post?

Ok, you're not religous.. neither am I. Call it a personality quirk, but there's something I respect about religous people. Truly religous people now, not the ones who use it as a reason to hate or fear things. But the ones who use it to help people, to strengthen people. And I find it appalling that people like Falwell can use that to become filthy stinking rich and spread their views on the world.

There are people in the world who hold his word as the word of God. He pretends (pretended) to speak to/for God and to know God's will. No man knows God's will and any man who pretends to is a fool and a blasphemer. (and a bad person)

Except for the fact that he keeps asking people to back up statements they didn't make.... I didn't see anyone post that they wished death upon Falwell yet scram continued to make the statement in support of his antagonistic argument.

And then when he's referred to as self-righteous he tries to pawn it off as one of those automatic responses yet goes onto admit that he is self-righteous.

Nobody claimed his posts weren't well thought out...on the contrary...I think his posts are thought out very well. It's just that he sees an opening to be an asshole and he jumps in it. Read the gun debate thread...some excellent points are made but he's still an arrogant, self-rightous ass.

-------------------------------------------

Why do you think he's one of the best posters on this forum? Are you just saying that to be different? I bet you're one of those people who only likes something until it becomes popular.

Actually, what you said there (or, tried to say there) completely fails to address the point of what I did with aadams post.

I simply replaced "Billy Graham" with "Jews" and then it suddenly becomes hate filled, anti-semitic, and wrong.

The steaming, roaring ****ing irony is that the poster himself is apparently so god damned stupid that he fails to see the flaming hypocrisy that's going on by his crying foul when I took his very words and simply changed the people in question.

I think he was just trying to make a point. Yes, taken out of context... it's crazy, but if you look a few posts up, he is satiring another post.

He talks about specific people with names who have shown a pattern of behaviour. Not close to saying "jews"

I'm not so sure on that...based on his posts in this and other threads I do believe there is an underlying feeling in everything he says

this is the reason. beyond just preaching hatred, the man profited greatly off of selling religion. he lived an extravagant lifestyle paid for by selling a way into heaven. does a true man of god need a multi-million dollar gated mansion? does a true man of god eat out nearly every night in the city's most expensive restaurants? does a true man of god dangle the carrot of every dollar of profits his university makes in front of the city he's in so that he can control the legislation of said city to suit his theistic ideals? answer those questions.

this is why he is a bad person. because he sold god, and kept the profits.

Oddly enough, scram has yet to address this issue.

scram... I (sort of) appreciate what you're trying to do. And I almost buy the "I'm the voice of reason" gig you got going. But I get the feeling you're enjoying it too much. I didn't take you seriously at first, hence my little "Glock" jabs. I was trying to make light and keep things semi serious.
If you're trying to drive the conversation, fine. But you seem to blow up too easily. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm feeling a lot of aggression coming through in your posts.
Maybe things are going by too fast, but seriously... what's your take on the guy selling false religion? What are your feelings on that? As I said, I'm not religous... but it just pisses me off. You said you didn't keep up with the guy, well if you don't believe us that he was a false prophet, then go and study and come back and tell me how you feel about his lifestyle and the money he made off of his preaching.

Actually, if you examine the spectrum of history as it is instead of viewing things through the completely "politically correct" sterilized vacuum of the past 20 years, it is absolutely the same thing when you say "Jews". Matter of fact, his post about "Billy Graham" looked like it could've been written by Goebbels. Not only have people "said those things before" about Jews, but like, those are the exact words that have been used about them in the past.

It is so funny to see the leftbots howling and shrieking when their very own premises and words are used to insult one of their own protected species. Its like when you tell the computer on Star Trek that "Everything I say is a lie.". It just starts smoking and repeating gibberish until it quits.

This was posted on the first page before scram showed up.

Uh, I'd probably have to say "yes" on that one. I seriously doubt that a true man of god is going to use his leverage to make things more atheistic.
Remember- it's your right to be atheistic and fight like hell for it, just as it's the right of other people to fight like hell for their god.

As for the others, I don't know where it says that austerity is required to be religious. I realize that the whole camel/eye of a needle/rich man thing is floating out there, but that has been discussed exhaustively before and it pretty much comes out that there's no poverty clause required to be amongst the faithful.



That is an entirely valid opinion to have, a valid claim to make and in my opinion, you're absolutely right.

It's really stupid when people mindlessly say or do something, are completely unable to defend it, yet as soon as someone comes along and makes a decent case for their common ideas, they jump right board, nodding their heads and saying "Yeh, Yeh, that's what I meant all along".

I haven't even read the rest of the thread yet, but I had to get in on this answer. Try his school of turning gay people straight.

His screwed up mind has caused him to commit actions (in the name of God) that has done way too much suffering to families (the man, the unknowing wife, and the innocent child)

Ironic that his poster child of turning gay people straight was found in a gay bar... imagine that. Countless people with positive future torn to shreds by the lies he's imposed....

It wouldn't as big of a deal if I didn't have a friend who was one of those "gay-straight" school victims.

What does it matter if people have "said those things about jews". You are grouping 4 year olds with a stereotype, these 4 year olds have not shown characters to be greedy, bigots etc. The group of Graham and Falwell have shown their character, selling religion and insighting hatred of everyone non christian and american directly through their actions.

your argument here does not hold any water imo. If someone attacks a politician on his voting record that is fair game, he chose to vote that way and those were his actions. If someone attacks a group of people because things have been said about them there is no validity their due to the fact that you have not heard statements from all the "jews".

Did Jerry do his mom in the outhouse or not? If this has been said I am sorry. lol. not really it needed brought up again. Jerry is just like every other preacher in this world. They are not in it for the preaching or their beliefs they are in it for the money. just saying.

The difference here is that he's using his power and money to force people to obey his beliefs. When you're a man of God, you do everything in your power to convince others that you are right and that they should feel the same way about God as you do. Thats the whole "spreading the gospel" thing. You do NOT, however, force everybody within your given area to believe and follow the same beliefs as you. Thats called a despot. By his control over the government of Lynchburg, he is forcing his religion on every citizen in the city. That is not right. Why do you think there isn't a strip club or even a Hooters in Lynchburg? Its not like they haven't tried. He blocked them. That's legislating morality. That is not right.


Austerity is not required to be religious. However, Jerry Falwell wasn't just religious. He was, arguably (I hate that word but can't phrase it any other way), the most influential religious figure in the country in present times. If anybody should exercise living a meager and simplistic lifestyle, it should be a man who preaches to millions about the evils of society, the way into heaven, and of course, of all the poor impoverished children that everybody should be helping. He created a lot of money for a lot of people who truly needed it, but a true man of God doesn't keep "his shake." He begged money from his believers, and used it for his own gluttonous reasons. To me, that is despicable.

yup thats pretty much the feeling

Not particularly well said, but I think I understand what you're getting at.
It is interesting, because it changes the premise.
We all agree that people are allowed to dislike other people based on the decisions they make. Politicians and votes, criminals and crimes, etc.
Certain religions, believe that the act of sodomy is a sin, thus, homosexuals are viewed by them as sinners due to their behaviors and decisions. I happen to not mind homos one bit. Matter of fact, I wish we would clone them and move them into the fast-gentrifying Chicago neighborhoods where I own property. God bless those decorative dudes. They are better for city real estate values than classic architecture and white people. Anyway, I digress...


The hang-up seems to be in this assumption that being gay isn't a "choice" which is a whole 'nother discussion. If we assume homosexuality is a choice (since the act of sodomy certainly is a behavior and not a biological reaction and there is absolutely no compelling science to suggest it's genetic), then you really can't lambaste Fallwell for criticizing it or hold him up as some sort of bigot for being disdainful of it. You can disagree with him about his conclusions, but you don't hold any real moral high ground just because he happens to view a certain behavior in a certain way. This is why its so ironic that whats-his-face made a hateful statement about people who basically amount to the figureheads for evangelical Christianity, yet when the very same words were used to address a species that happens to have protected status by people like him (Jews), then it's suddenly "wrong" and "hateful" and "racist" and "insert-phrase-here".

Im too tired to write out well thought out responses but Im glad you got my point. If you dont see why that jew comment was racist then I dont think you understand what the word is used for. All those preachers have shown those qualities so it was not a generalization.

'Man I really hate screaming toddlers, all of them just get on my nerves. I wish they would just disappear.'

'Man I really hate Jews, all of them just get on my nerves. I wish they would just disappear.'



I simply replaced "screaming toddlers" with "Jews" and then it suddenly becomes hate filled, anti-semitic, and wrong.

So, what was your point again?






Oh and if you really think aadams sounds like Goebbels, maybe you should brush up on your Goebbels:


"The Jews are a parasitic race that feeds like a foul fungus on the cultures of healthy but ignorant peoples. There is only one effective measure: cut them out."


"A decent enemy will deserve our generosity after we have won. The Jew however is not a decent enemy, though he tries to seem so. The Jews are responsible for the war. The treatment they receive from us is hardly unjust. They have deserved it all."

You most certainly have a point but I think it would be better if you replaced "Jews" with another religion or idea like Islam or Atheism. While many Jews are practicing there are plenty that aren't, it is a little different because you can be jewish without beliving anything that is taught in Judaism. I find it absurd that somehow the left likes to defend Islam to the point of saying you are racist if you say something like "I hate Islam". I hate Christianity and Islam equally. Even though the large majority of Islamic people are not radical, and I am not worried about most of them being terrorists, most of them have backwards ways on viewing women and gays. Yet somehow it is insensitive to mock them.

Why do you dislike atheists?

I don't I am one I was just saying he should use something besides a race of people to draw a parallel.

Actually, it is "right" from the perspective of the faithful.
I happen to disagree and so do you and many others, but it is the right for each community to set its own standards.
Say I live in Yourtown, USA. I happen to believe that scat porn is the hottest thing ever, and I want to open a scat club where people crap on each other.
I have a billboard for my new club that shows a girl covered in turd.
Can I put it up in public?
Very few people say yes. Most say no. It's profane, it's "offensive", yadda yadda.

The issue has to do with where the line for profanity exists. To the people in Lynchburg, it seems to exist somewhere ahead of tittie bars and hooters. Obviously, things are different in Vegas, my town, your town or wherever. The fact that Fallwell imparts his own standards of morality on Lynchburg is no different than standards of morality in any other community in the country.



Oh man, I totally agree with you. I spent a great deal of time as a Red Cross volunteer. It was like a fountain of wasted money. I've never seen anything like it. Like, I could write a book about how wasteful and mismanaged that .org is. And to top it off, the head of the .org makes seven figures! It was nothing but "retiree" vultures who hovered around to collect their $40 a day living expenses, free hotel, free rental car, etc. Vulture ****ing retirees who used Red Cross as a hobby. I calculated that one day, it cost Red Cross 7,800 to pour coffee to 78 Hurricane impacted people in Maryland.

Contrast this with the Salvation Army, who, was the most efficient charity .org I've ever seen in my life (by a huge margin). All those people wanted to do was help. The man who runs the Sal Army, Todd Bassett, only accepts like $15,000 a year plus room and board for managing an enormous charity organization.

So, anecdote, but yeh. I completely agree with what you're saying there.

Yeah I've known a few Salvation Army people in my life, you have to be really dedicated if that is your job.

Retarded.
Your saying you "hate screaming toddlers and wish they would all just disappear" is simply conversational hyperbole and the speaker being sardonic.

Saying you "hate Jerry Fallwell, Jews and them dirty Mexicans and wish they would all just disappear" is, by default, usually founded in a genuine hatred that the speaker has for those groups. I simply replaced the "hated group" from being evangelical Christians to Jews and suddenly, the very same hateful words are "wrong" since Evangelical Christians don't enjoy the same protected species status as Jews or races other than white people.

But he didn't say he hated evangelical Christians, he said he hated a few specific evangelical christians!

well the thing is, the community isn't the one setting its own standards necessarily. these things weren't voted on, they were simply not allowed because brother Jerry would've pulled the plug on a great deal of funds funneling into the city (and those who run it, mainly) if places like that were allowed to open. And no, I don't have any facts I can pull up to prove that, but I know because everybody here knows how it works. I live in Appomattox Va, and I work in Lynchburg. I've lived here all my life, and have had to live in the shadow of the great and powerful Jerry the whole time. This place is run by Jerry Falwell and Thomas Road Baptist Church/Liberty University. And that is the problem: its a city run by a church. Not a bunch of people running a city that happen to go to the same church; that isn't it by any means. The people don't mandate what goes on here, Jerry's money does, and that is where the contempt I have for him comes from (among other smaller reasons).


And I've heard that about the Red Cross more times than I can count. I don't know anything about them first hand, but apparently they've always been like that. My grandfather was a medic in WWII, and he absolutely despised the Red Cross, almost as much as he hated the French, and thats saying a LOT.

well at least you know your limits

Don't even get me started on those ****ing assholes.
Like the time we were in Dames Quarter, MD and had to tell a young man with two babies that we couldn't give him a purchase order for a new fridge because Red Cross was "low on funds", yet when I got back to the headquarters, there were 20+ completely useless 100 year old "volunteers" standing around doing precisely nothing, each receiving a $60 per night hotel, a $4o per day rental car and $35 food expenses. When I said something about this to the head man, I was told "Well, thats how these things work sometimes".

Or the time after the floods in Jackson, MS in 2003 where we responded to a drug and alcohol rehab that had 6' of standing water, basically ruining the entire place. All I could give them men was ****ing candy bars and bottles of Poweraide because we weren't allowed to PO any more expenses for that particular day, yet when I returned to the HQ, sure enough, there was a phone bank set up with 30+ "volunteers" (each getting $50 daily hotel, $50 daily car and $40 daily living allowance) just to tell people what we couldn't do for them.

It is horrendous.
Contrast this with Salvation Army.
All they do is help. They're like ants. While the Red Cross volunteers stand around drinking coffee and shooing away people in need, Salvation Army runs around and absolutely breaks their back to do everything possible. Delivering food, delivering funds, delivering supplies, providing shelter.

I'll stop now because I could carry on forever.
I hate hate hate Red Cross so badly it's like a little glowing coal in my chest that gets hotter and hotter every time I speak their name. They are the most monumentally wasteful organization in the history of government waste.

Youd think that the stoners would be used to eating candy bars....



...at least the boozers could pee in the flooded building without anyone knowing

I started getting bored with this debate, so I don't really know if this has been covered, but here's why I think Fallwell is scum and am happy he is dead...

I think televangelists are about the lowest form of human on the planet. They use religion, and specifically fear, to manipulate, control and rob people. Fear of change, fear of immigrants, fear of homosexuals and in general the "other" but most of all fear of hell. They terrify people with hell fire in one breath, then hold out their hands for donations with another. They are the basest and most blatant of con men, praying on the ignorant, the elderly, the sick and the stupid, selling them salvation for 29.99.

Moreover, I think Fallwell is the figurehead of a movement that I find chilling and repugnant. A movement of ignorance and superstition.. a movement that is severely anti-scientific, anti-rational. And it is a movement that wants to force these views on the rest of us, to teach these "values" in our schools, that wants to willfully make America more ignorant, more sheepish, more intolerant.

I think the crowing achievement of Western Civilization is Reason. Fallwell is absolutely an enemy of reason. I'm not certain what percentage of Fallwell genuinely believed the stuff he preached, and what percentage of him was con man.. and I don't think it matters in the slightest. I think he represents, on so many levels, the absolute worst of humanity.

I dislike Fallwell specifically for his views, for his voice, for his power. I dislike what he stands for and the movement he was a leader of much more. I don't believe in heaven, nor do I believe in hell... but if people like this asshat go to heaven, then you can fcking keep it. Because this man was pure scum. If I had the chance, I'd piss on his grave.