PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Preflop: Actuary is CO with , .
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Actuary calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Actuary calls, SB folds.

Flop: (13 SB) , , (6 players)
BB bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Actuary ?

and anyone raise preflop?


BB: 21/18/1
UTG: 26/4/0.4
UTG+1: 39/0/0.8

~30 hands

QJs, I'd raise pf, here I'd limp.

I'd fold this flop.

I agree with Zach.

I don't like paying 3 maybe 4 bets on the flop for the second nut flush.

FYP.

Yeah, that too.

Because the Ks Raises or 3-bets there?

KsXs does, Ks bets it, etc.

It's just too likely that the Ks is out in a 6 way flop, for me to be putting money in here.

I'm worried more about a set or two pair based on the betting and wondering if getting 25:4 to call the flop bets is worth it

But I only have a small concern of a Ks.
There are only 6 unknown cards in play and I really don't see the UTG or UTG+1 playing it like that, whether it's a draw or made
BB, sure, AxKs possible. (edit: the 6 unknown is a bad number, because we know the folded hands probably don't have the Ks)

Don't get me wrong, the call is debateable, maybe bad, but I'm simply disagreeing with the reason.

I should wait for more discussion before defending!

come all and opine!!!

With 4 callers and the button and blinds yet to act, I don't see a PF raise doing anything good. They would only have to call 1
more bet. The button and sb may drop.
I am nowhere "up to speed" on the math yet. Especially online. I can do the pot odds for flush and oe straight draws but I am still working on pot equity edge and stuff. So alot of my decisions are "gut feelings". I see this pot becoming huge. I couldn't fold here with the second nut. I'm 35% to make my flush and I have 3 others in. If I make my flush, there is only 1 card that can
beat me. I would never fold to a 1 outer. I'm not doing any raising but I would call to see the river.

http://pokerstove.com

^^ I would recommend downloading, and playing aroudn with that a bit. You'll start to get an idea of how other hands do vs certain ranges HU, or multiway, etc. It helps a lot with the pot equity concepts.

Thanks Zach. I am downloading that now. Great forum and contributors.

I raise this preflop and hopefully get KsXs to fold so that my Qs will be good.

But seriously I do raise PF. Maybe I overplay the CO and Button.

On this board I stay if it's cheap and if I make the flush, I'm going to the river as cheaply as possible if I believe the the K is out there.



I just can't stop thinking about a PF raise here and then hopefully this wouldn't be 6 way action.

Meh, not sure about raising pf after 4 limpers.

I don't think a PFR loses a suited king here (and is that really what you're thinking preflop?), so I can't see a raise thinning the field. And your QJ is not suited, so you've got a relatively weak drawing hand: see the flop before you start throwing money at it.

It being Limit... probably not.




No, not really what I'd be thinking, hence the smiley face.

You guys are right, a PFR probably doesn't really do anything for us. As I said, I'm probably overplaying postion here.

Youd raise this in no limit?

Am I the only one that thinks about folding preflop here?

with 4 limpers already and us being in CO, you probably are.

I'm not a big QJo fan either, but having position on this many limpers, I might be tempted.

I probably would have capped the flop for the 2nd nut flush draw. If the K of spades is out, oh well, my bad

No, I meant that with that many limpers, a single bet is not going to force them to fold. Still, I might give it a try.



Very likely.



6 way it's probably out there, but I'm with you. GG us.

folding is retarded vs 4 limpers

it's hard outplaying 4 limpers

raising QJ doesn't have much equity as someone could limp w/pp, ax etc.

so why is raising to represent a good hand and play our position bad imo? see statement #2

I agree it's hard to outplay 4 limpers, but doesn't raising to represent and playing our position make it a little easier? Just limping here gets us nothing. If we raise and get two of them to fold...

Preflop, with 4 limpers in front and 3 left to act behind us we can be sure we are dominated by at least one of them, and we could possibly be drawing dead to a straight.

If we're playin NL then of course we limp right along here because the implied odds are there, but they're not here.

Also postflop I'd fold. I'm an agressive mfer but only when I think I have a reasonable chance to win the hand.

Get two of the limpers to fold? When, if they completely whiff the flop? Or if they nail the flop, but decide you have AA, and make a big laydown?

Plainly and simply: Our hand doesn't have the equity edge we need to justify putting an extra bet into the pot (in generaly). It makes the pot bigger, tying us to it further, and when we ARE behind, we're behind for not just our equity deficit-share of the extra money we put in RIGHT NOW, but the extra money we'll be forced to put in LATER, because we made the pot all swole up.

There are cases in games where you need to splash chips around, in order to loosen the game up, and force players to bring more marginal hands to the table. It's situations like THIS- rarely a huge dog, multiway pot, weakish hand with potential to flop big, a hand that weak players CONSISTENTLY overplay preflop- that I look to get more chips into the pot when I'm likely just not a huge dog. If you raise 4 limpers with this hand preflop, flop hard, and get to showdown, the solid players at the table will be more inclined to think "dude likes raising the field with QJo. thinks any two paint is good, likes to gamble." Then chips start coming loose and the game becomes softer.


When it goes bet, raise, 3-bet and you're calling 3-cold (with the likelihood of a cap behind you, so 3.5ish cold) with the second nut spade draw and no good way to win the pot otherwise, I'm inclined to fold for a few reasons:

1) If we're favorites here, I don't think folding is such a big mistake that the equity we sacrifice is significantly detrimental to our winrate

2) The hand might get very costly- whether we get there or not

3) ROIs = awful

4) I'm lazy



Wang

Why would you assume they are limping with dominating hands? I think that's unlikely. AJ/AQ raise, KQ/KJ sometimes raise, and those are the only hands that dominate us.

come on...at these micro games we have idiots limping with everything.

So why don't you want to see a flop with QJo then?

dogpatch,

Why would the Ks likely be out there?

************

flushgarden,

you sound more concerned about winning pots than winning $$$

***********

Wang,

thank you for coming out of analysis hibernation

In a pot this big, ROI is really not a going to be a factor, a lot of times.
We'd have to put in 8 more BB an lose.
But if the board does not pair and another spade comes, I don't see it going to 4 BB
Again, ROI is for small pots, yes?


****************

I expected the turn to provide a ton of info.
I called the flop

It was a Offsuit blank.

Turn went
check, check, bet, Me Call, 2 calls...

etc...

I think I'm doing what we talked about somewhere else, projecting the card that beats me into my opponents hand.

With this flop, honestly.... I'd probably be a calling station looking for a spade. Leak? Probably.

I'm just saying we'll have to payoff a few bets when behind. RIOs are generally best understood when the pot is small, but it implies in all situations when you're likely to payoff when behind. It doesn't really make sense here, because RIOs apply when you're ahead on one street, but your opponent is likely to catch up later, and punish you.

I know it's not getting boosted up to 3 bets on the turn, like, ever. I just saying if it somehow goes bet-raise on the turn, and a spade peels off on the river, and it goes bet-something-you, it'll suck. Like I said, I'm inclined to fold given the action.

How many outs are you giving yourself on this board? On average? 9 spade outs, but they have to be discounted very VERY heavily given the action.


Wang


PS- Holy crap, I just saw how passive UTG is. This is looking more like a fold with that .4 AF staring you right in the face. I haven't played hold'em online for about 5 months, though, so whatever

with only 30 hands that last number is not that relevant, it converges slower than the others in terms of what we understand as the typical range: 0.3 - 3.0 ish.

I was totally discounting the outs with repest to the board pairing; but not so much for the Ks being out.
Maybe 7 * .7 = 5 outs.

Certainly with our position if we had the Ks it's an easy call.
Not so much just for the safer outs; but the ability to raise the turn or river when we hit.

As played, the turn went check, check, bet, Me call, two call.
River was a non-pairing Spade.

It went check, check, check, I bet, fold, call, call.

Flop 3-bettor and Turn bettor had Aces Up.
Flop Raiser hand a small flush.

i think youre not understanding the reasons to raise in a spot like this.
it should be for value, not to get people to fold.

Very true. And the only person that would be facing 2 cold anyway is the SB.