$1/2 live game.. $100 max buyin

Table has been pretty loose... preflop raises typically $12 with about 5-6 callers.. with a lot of postflop betting

Entire table limps

Hero (in cutoff): $103
Villain (button): $107
AgroDonk(BB): ~$250


Hero Dealt: 5c 5s

Limped around to BB who raises to $6.. folded to hero who calls.. villain calls sb folds

Flop: 5d 6d Jh

Agro checks
Hero checks (reason for check: Villain always gave away when he was going to raise by grabbing his chips before i acted, so if i stalled for just a second i always knew what his move would be)
Villain bets $10
Agro calls
Hero raises to $40
Villain calls
Agro rants about having the best hand and fold


turn: 8c

Hero: ?

I debated a check raise and just pushing... at this table if a turn card was seen, pretty much everyone shut down and most times whatever money was in on the flop was what was won at the table

There's 2 diamonds out there, I would bet out here, because if you check and he's on a flush draw he would probably check behind you and take a free card.

If betting this turn card.. what am I betting.. the pot is ~$110, and I have ~$57 left... so am I pretty much just left pushing? And does that 8 scare us at all?

I shove. The 8 doesn't scare me.

Yeah, you have to shove here. Even though you don't want to scare him away, you don't have any other choice really given the stack sizes.

I agree. I don't see pocket 8's here and the only other thing would be a 4-7. That is pretty unlikely

Yes like everyone else said I would shove here.

Push? Don't you have less than 60 behind here? The pot's over 100.

Who are you, and what are you doing in strat?

Is this a fleeting visit, or do you plan to stick around a while?

Don't check on that flop.

The turn doesn't matter. It could be the scariest card in the deck and you're still gonna be pushing.

QFT. If the villian is going to raise it makes more sense to bet out, they will raise, then you can push and get it in much easier that way.

I have more posts in NLHE Strat than anyone, I'd wager.

But, it's likely a fleeting visit.



Agreed.

I don't doubt it. Just havent seen you round here in months.

Don't leave.

We're darn near getting odds to call even if we know he has the straight. The only thing that's a real problem for us is 66 or JJ, and we're going to leave a lot of money on the table if we worry about those hands.

If the hero checks and the villain shoves, we're getting pot odds of:
167 : 57 = 2.9 : 1

Hero's set is a 3.42 : 1 dog to a straight. So even if the 8 scared us, we have to ask, "Am I going to fold here?" And of course the answer is no. And then it should be clear that checking is no good. We don't want money going into the pot only when we're behind.

I agree with the rest of the herd about betting the flop.

You're not getting any action on that unless you lay us really good odds.

Nice to see you around.

Am I reading this right? Did everyone seriously limp for $2 then fold for $4 more?

I realize in most cases checking this flop is a terrible idea.. but this table was so obvious in what they would do, a check raise was the only way to get more into the pot... Agrodonk never raises, only bets big or check calls.. and the villain would literally tell me what he was going to do every single hand based on what he had in his hands... i hesitated to see what he was doing, and he grabbed the $10.. if he had no chips in his hand i had planned on betting out.. this read was very consistent and had NEVER failed in terms of betting/calling/checking in the time i watched him and played with him before this hand...

a few more questions:

a) based on this specific table and these reads.. is the check raise that terrible?
Should I have just bet more, perhaps pushed, on the check raise?
c) Rather than going for the check/raise after seeing villain pick up the $10, could I have gone the opposite route and bet more than he planned on betting? If so, what do I bet.. pot is ~$22ish i guess...

shove, I'm not too worried about the 8. What does that help other than 74? That hand seems pretty unlikely.

Please don't tell us that he had pocket 8s....

You have got to shove here with your stack sizes...

Not if you know he's going to bet

I think a check/raise push would be raising a little too much. We don't want him to go away.

Depends on your read, if he wanted to bet but you lead is he going to raise most of the time?

Neither Villain nor Agrodonk reraised.. ever.. even with the nuts.. this table was very aggressive pre.. the pretty weak post flop

Then going by your read of him grabbing chips to bet with I like going for the check/raise. You get the most money in this way.

Results: I insta-pushed Hellmuth style the 8 and get called by the "unlikely" 47o.. hand was on my mind most of the night.. had to get opinions based on how i played the hand as it was on my mind most of the night..

Is there any problem with my check raise amount?

No, you played it fine. He made a bad call and got lucky.

It's not a ridiculously bad call. Villain's calling $30 to win $85...and potentially more if BB decides to call the raise also. Additionally, he's getting some implied odds (although obviously not great). By my estimates, he's looking at something like 5-1 implied. (I assume there's ~$55 in the pot when we "call" the initial bet.) If we discount him from 8 outs to 7 outs, he's ~5.5-1 to hit on the turn. So it's -EV...but only marginally so. He may just be "gambling" here to get a bigger stack.

Basically, I don't think this line is the right line. Given this board texture and stack sizes, I believe we've either got to lead/push or check/raisepush this flop. Yes, the second one's going to be a bit of an overbet...but I don't think we've got much choice. One key to NL is looking ahead to what you and your opponent(s) will be left with if your bet/raise is called. When you're going to have significantly less than the pot on the next street, you generally need to just push. If both us and the villain had stacks in the ~$200 range, I like the given line much better...though I still prefer a slightly larger check-raise. I realize that a 4x raise seems sufficient (and often is), but villain's initial flop bet was pretty small in relation to the pot-size and got called.

This was why I had a problem with this hand.. I knew i wasnt going to lead/push as i knew it would not be called... but I've been struggling with the amount I check/raised.. its not something I do terribly often so i never know how much to push.. plus playing shorter than playing online (51.5bb live compared to starting stack of 100bb online) I questioned this throughout the night.. i had no problem with the result of the hand despite losing.. by my check/raise amount was on my mind..and is still on my mind...

Given the way many low limit live players play anyway.. was i just destined to go broke this hand anyway?

jam? whats the alternative, try to control the pot size in case he is set over set or has 47? bad beat, move on

I think if you check-raised pushed, he definitely needs to fold...whether he will or not, I don't know...but you would've gotten all of the money in as a significant favorite.