Blinds are now $0.25/$0.50

MP4 - $19.62
Hero- $50.10
Button - $23.75
SB - $49.50
BB - $17.11
UTG - $11.50
UTG +1 - $108.61
MP1 - $46.18
Villian - $51.25
MP3 - $28.89

Hero has A K

3 fold
Villian calls $0.50
2 fold
Hero raises to $2
3 fold
Villian calls $2

Pot = $4.75

Flop J 3 4
Villian bets $4
Hero calls $4

Pot = $16.75

Turn J
Villian bets $10
Hero raises to $30
Villian raises to $45.25 (all-in)
Hero....?

Basically, from the time the guy lead out I didnt put him on a Jack. Because of this, I just smooth called the flop and planned to raise turn if no scary card came. The J i thought was perfect for me, and so I raised. His re-raise was almost immediate, which made me think maybe he has the J, however I am pot commited am i not?

Umm... anything but standard.

How is this standard? More than likely you are drawing dead..... And you know this too, but you wanna call anyway?

How was the J a perfect card? The villain is obviously betting on jack, he's afraid of a flush draw, but you think that card was a good one for you?



I don't care if it only cost you another 2 bucks, you are beat, dump it

Fold or raise the flop, calling is atrocious. As played fold the turn.

Your read was wrong (or worse, he flopped a set and turned a boat), now fold and move on. You can't make a "pot committed" call when you're drawing dead, and Villain bluff re-raises <1% of the time here so the pot would need to be laying you ~100:1 to make a call even close.

If you don't put him on a J then pop it on the flop. Don't wait for the turn when you have to commit so much of your stack with a very weak hand.

You aren't pot committed, save the $15. You have to win about 1 in 6 to make this call correct, I don't think you're anywhere close to that in this situation.

Wow did you ever step in it.

No sense making a call drawing dead dead dead.

Sigh.

He has 5c6c. Call.

By the way, putting your opponents on the only hands you can beat is a bad strategy.

ok standard was the wrong term for this title, as i said, i didnt put him on a J, not at all...and I was right....he had ducks. My real debate with this hand, was to raise the flop, or call and raise turn, to make sure i make the most i can out of the hand. im a bit shocked at this raise mind you, esp considering his hand, so he either had an extremely good read on me or was a bit stupid.

Alot of people do say, follow your read and your gut when unsure........so I did, and i was right, just didnt get the correct cards this time..........

I'm almost certain this is not a winning play in the long run.

putting someone on not havign top pair 1) doesn't mean he has nothing at all 2) doesn't mean you can get him off the hand 3) usually on a draw heavy board, air will not bet into you and a J will most definitely make a pot sized lead like he did 4) and you guys were just racing to outdonk each other.

whiskey tango foxtrot. over.

That's what I hate about these hands.
This hand boiled down to ego and emotion.
Ego and emotion feed losing poker.
As it turns out, you couldn't have hoped for better in his hand.
any second pair on the board, or A or K ships you the donk pot.
But surely there are better spots.

Fair enough, and I suppose if you could see his cards on the turn you're probably getting good odds to call the $15, but you could save yourself a buy in if you just cut your losses and folded to his lead on the turn. It's not like you made a good read and were way ahead and he sucked out. He is in fact way ahead of you, and apparently refuses to lay down deuces. Against a player like that, trying to bluff him out is the exact wrong strategy.

I would also fold the flop. If I have AK in position and my opponent leads out strong on an ugly board I'm folding.

agreed, however i didnt know this about villian til after the hand

Let's get something straight because a lot of people seem to be having issues with this.

A read means that you have some information that leads you to believe that you know what your opponent has. It can be a betting pattern, the speed of a bet, the way the opponent puts chips into the pot or just a general familiarity with a particular person's style of play.

In order for it to be a "read" and not just a guess, you gotta be able to be really convincing when someone asks

"Why did you put them on that hand" or "What made you think they were weak."

I think too often people in here are making plays becuase they think they should make a play and then they just hope it will work. Then we get hands posted on here that don't make any sense and the Hero is trying to justify it by saying "I thought they were weak, blah blah blah" and everyone else in the forum is saying "why did you think they were weak, every move they made looked really strong" and the answer is usually that the Hero just wanted to make a play, so he arbitrarily assigned the villain a hand that he could beat and he made a move.

I guess what I'm saying is that you don't make moves becuase you think you need to make a move. You make a move because you can justify why you think your opponent has a weak hand and will fold.

I don't think this was one of those cases, hence my rant above.

I agree with that, and thats why I thought villian would fold to a raise with the 2nd Jack on the turn with me showing alot of strength. Im still a bit stunned villian didnt actually fold given the cards out there and what he actually had.......

Right, but why do you think that he doesn't have a jack. He called a preflop raise, led the flop and led the turn. HE is the one representing the J. If you don't think he has a J, why don't you think he has it? His play certainly says that he has it.

I understand that your play was supposed to convey strength, but the idea is to prey on the weakness in other people. My point here is that it seems like you didn't put him on a J becuase you had AK and you and you wanted to make a play at him so that he'd lay down a better hand than yours, not because his play dictated that he didn't have a J. You see what I'm getting at?

Unless you have reasons to believe that this player doesn't hold the Jack there, then you don't make this play. You had said that you didn't know much about the villain, so I find it unlikely that you were familiar enough with his play to know what kinds of hands he makes this play with and therefore you guessed and put your whole stack at risk on a guess.

I was going to say good posts, but then I noticed the typos. Speak English next time moron.

I'm busting chops today. You can ask anyone.

Edited.

lol

Hey, I take pride in writing real English and not butchered ghetto English. There are some people on this forum who I don't think graduated the 4th grade based on how they write.

Yeah, I'm the same. I 2 h8 txt spk. it sux.

I was just being stupidly awkward this time.

I know you were just needling. You just can't tell that I'm not offended because of my awesome poker face, as displayed in my avatar.

I find that trying to type in a certain tone of voice is difficult.

true enough, i was esentially trying to make villian lay down a hand that could possibly beat me, but of course i didnt know EXACTLY what he had. so in what situations do you try and make someone lay down a hand that currently has you beat on a dangerous board?

If you were vilian, would you have called my raise on turn with ducks? like was it a stupid move on his part as well as mine, or was i the lonely idiot in this hand?

Your hand looks like a draw since you only called on the flop. The board really isn't that dangerous with the exception of the flush draws. Your move was stupid, his wasn't necessarily any better unless he can explain why he did it like

"well, I figured that he might have big cards since he raised preflop and so I got a flop that wans't bad for my 22, so I led into him. When he just called me, I figured he probably had like AK or AQ with the flush draw and was trying to hit his hand, but that my 22 was still best. When the turn rolled off it looked like a good card for me because it didn't complete his flush draw so I led again. Now he raised, but I didn't think he had a J becuase I thought he'd have raised me with it on the flop and now he was trying to represent that he had it, but I dind't believe him. I still thought he had 2 big cards and a flush draw, so I pushed with my 22 because I figured they were still best..."

You see how there is logic and an explanation for each move that he made there? I'm not saying that he necessarily played well, but if he explained it like that, then at least he did everything that he did for a reason. I am not even sure you knew what range to put him on in the hand. You just felt that you'd move him off of his hand. Do you see the difference?

yeah............so my biggest mistake really was not raising on flop? the way i see it now, is 2 options, fold or raise the flop


*sigh*.......

No, your biggest mistake was making a move without enough consideration of what he actually had and enough foresight into what you were representing. Yes, in this case if you had raised the flop he might have dumped it right there, but the *point* is to make sure you're picking the right spot and the right opponent to make a move on, and the easiest way to do that is to be able to answer the question of *why* with concrete evidence from previous hands and his action on the current hand. Otherwise its a crapshoot whether he has a hand or not and whether he can let it go or not and whether he'll believe you or not.

You understand that you don't have to win EVERY pot right?

You miss with AK, and get led into, and you don't have drawing odds, fold and move on.

Stop making this game harder than it is.

******************

Also, I'd like to point out that I HATE when people come in and post incoherent english. l8er, etc IS ONLY SAVING YOU ONE KEYSTROKE! Also, there are examples in this forum, without naming names, that type with no punctuation, capitalization, etc. You can just tell reading it that they're intelligence is the same as a newborn, or they are actually 11 years old. Drives me insane and I wish I could just instaban all of them.

Motion seconded and carried.

Yeah, but "shud i fold JJ wen da flops all 1 suit an he mves in?" saves 10 keystrokes.

Sure I understand that, and it obv was a bluff trying to get villian to lay down hand that just didnt work. should have folded on flop....end of story i suppose



LOL

Yeah, but it makes me want to kill you.

I mentioned this to my gf the other day (the driving part), but I'm gonna put it on the record for the cops to see after I do go crazy. I'm fairly certain if I had a gun, and was already a criminal, I would just shoot the bad drivers on the roads. You know, the ones who don't understand acceleration lanes, turning lanes, etc. I'm going to add people who type like retards to that. I think those things bother me more than not converting and posting results, haha.

nice.....no more converting hands for me while those people keep typing horribly

Dont' is obviously a typo...

and you only found one legitimate error in his whole post..

Do you understand humour?

Have you ever seen Futurama, Zap Brannigan understands humor?


"Wow, one day a man has everything...,then the following day he blows up a $40 billion space station, and the next day he has nothing. It really makes you think."

this thread is the twilight zone. seriously


and zach/acid/other grammar Kings --- i am proof that it's possible to post well without correct punctualization/capitalization. the key is to not spell a bunch of stuff wrong and use lots of small paragraphs.

I think small punctuation/capitalization errors/omissions can certainly be ignored if you give solid posts. Good posts don't make you look 14. When people who can't even type their own name properly reply, AND give awful advice, then it's relentlessly annoying.

What's his name? Mikey Ravioli or something like that? Yeah, go read his posts.

Doh! Seriously, this happens to me every time I make a post somewhere correcting or complaining about someone's grammar or spelling. Its like 5:1 you're gonna screw something up when pointing out someone else's mistake (which means theres at least 2-3 in this post). I like my old English prof. email signature to cover her bases:

"The above email is neither chellspecked nor roofpread."

I just wanted to point out that the ability to edit my posts, AND everyone elses has huge advantages when covering up your own flaws.

That is all.

Your all overreacting hear.

BAHAHAHAHAHA, I suck at grammar and poker sorry.

You're such a **** to me zach,

all I ever do is shower you with love and affection

I know I was trying to stick up for you. Zap rocks my world.

Appreciated, Zap is what made futurama, I seriously jump for joy when I see the episodes with him are on

You sure it's not just the outfit?