Just saw this posted over at their forums... http://www.thehendonmob.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13816


I have just spoken to Ram who is not best pleased about the innacurate accounts of the dispute with Phil Ivey which has been doing the rounds and have now appeard on Daniel Negranau's blog.

Ram has asked us to reproduce this letter here and will be giving his own full version of events at a later date.

Daniel.

I have just read your blog in which you complain of your friend's treatment and the hands of a couple of “hustlers”. I understand that you have jumbled the letters in their names, although as a chronic dyslexic this makes absolutely no difference to me. As is your intention, the whole world of course knows exactly who you are talking about.

I feel that I know you fairly well, both through our meetings across the poker table and through your public persona. I often cite you as one of the people in poker I most admire and I know that your take on any issue connected with poker is always going to be worth hearing.

That is why I am particularly disappointed that you have made a public pronouncement on a private matter about which - as you readily accept - you do not have all the facts, and have only heard from one side.

I quote from your blog: 'You played for days and days, continued to raise the stake unprovoked, set the rules for the game...'

The first two words are spot on, but everything beyond that tells me that your information is not exactly from the horse's mouth, and I don't think we should be playing Chinese Whispers with people's reputations.

I do not know your buddy very well but he has always struck me in the past as a good guy. I do not doubt that he feels aggrieved, and I would not dream of making a public judgment about a dispute he is involved in; Particularly when I have never discussed it with him. Notwithstanding the pressure to find regular content for your blog, it is a shame that you do not accord my buddy the same courtesy.

Ram is a man of infinite patience and very few words. For the past few months he has maintained a dignified public silence whilst seeing his character attacked and misinformation spread. I know he does not feel under any obligation to respond to the flamers and gossips, and I don't suppose he will thank me for writing this, but I feel it's time I made one very simple observation.

Of all the people I have known both inside and outside poker, none is more fundamentally honest and thoroughly honorable than Ram Vaswani. No one who has spent any time with him on or off the poker table would ever seriously question that. This is not to imply otherwise about any other party, it is simply that I know this about Ram to the extent that I would stake my life on it.

Even if I did not know the facts of the case I would therefore be quite certain that he would have to have a very good reason, and certainly to be utterly convinced in his own mind, if he were to dispute a gambling debt.

I know that this matter is already in the public domain and that you are only repeating in good faith what you have been told. Perhaps by way of balance though, you might feel it would be appropriate to publish this letter.

All the very best.

Barny Boatman

Why is everyone speaking through friends? I graduated high school 20 years ago and I'm having some serious flashbacks. Bottom line is the parties concerned need to use a thing called a PHONE, (new technology), man up and deal.

So.

It sounds to me like they are not disputing the key point: they lost the cash and don't want to pay up.

I picked this up also. It just seemed like he was mad at Daniel for making it public, he didn't really dispute anything.

Might as well just start sending people notes like we did back in high school

Will you forgive me and not make me pay my debt?

Check one:

Yes
No
Maybe

lmao, Iowa.

LOLOL

Seems like the dispute boils down to 2 issues:

1) Did Ivey lie about his handicap?

2) If Ivey lied about his handicap is he still entitled to the money?

Not much we can say about #1, but #2 we can certainly discuss...

I'm not involved myself in these kind of bets,
but it seems to me if the terms of the bet are found to be fraudulent that
would nullify the arrangement.

I don't know, but I would have to be very rich to ever bet this kind of money on my shaky golf game

I used to play golf with my business partner, as of 2003 I still owe him something like 46 million...I hope i never win the lottery cuz than i might have to pay. It went something like this....I'd lose one bet for 50k and then it would be double or nothing, til we got to 46 million and i realized, I have no golf game....I'm not paying either.

I replied privately to that letter in an e-mail. I was not the one who made this public, and I would not have if Goodwin didn't first write a blog calling Ivey out as a hustler. When that happened, this ceased to be a private matter. One side of the story was made public by Goodwin, and now the other side of the story has also been made public.

1) No.

2. Yes.

lesson to be learned here children, do your homework before you gamble

Danny I have emailed both you and kirk about this but will say a few things on here. You have gotten Phils side of things just like I have Ram and Marcs side of things . Nobody knows exactly the conversation that was had apart from those involved but as marcs is the only version on public record that is the one we should beleive. If Phil wants to call Ram and Marc liers by saying he didnt claim to get 10 shots off eric then fair enough let him say it on a forum instead of you to get involved. Cheating at golf is the same as cheating at poker and anybody who cheats with his handicap (and is later found out to have done so) shouldnt be paid. If he played cards with a marked deck would it be fine? Branding one of the UKs best known players and gamblers a welcher without having heard his side of things is very shortsighted of you and will make you look bad to many who look up to you.

As for everyone defending Ivey as being the salt of the earth never hurt a fly type I dont know how many of you know the story of the guy who taught him to play chinese poker many moons ago. This guy won a good few quid off him. Ivey went away and improved and now takes great player saying how he didnt just win his money back he totally broke the guy who now drives a taxi. He didnt just want to win a few quid he wanted to destroy him completely and is quite proud of the fact he did. Again this is only heresay as who knows whats true in poker tales etc but i really think they should be left to sort this and you should keep out of it.

Did you read this?

This was writen by one of the guys who lost. He doesn't accuse Phil of lying about his handicap (how many amateurs know their handicap?). They asked how many strokes he gave to E-Dog. Not the same thing. And if Phil hadn't played with E since he'd improved....

...well you get the point.

Plus they quit and refused to pay BEFORE hearing that now Phil doesn't get 10 strokes from E anymore.

Bottom line, even after reading the other side of the story, I don't have any sympathy.



The following is from:
http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/7225

Since the Aussie Millions a few weeks back, rumours have been circulating that, in the bluntest of terms, Phil Ivey hustled fellow poker players Marc Goodwin, Ram Vaswani (left) and Erik Sagstrom out of over one million dollars.

The most infamous splashing of such gossip came in the form of a thread on an American forum, and commenced with the following line: Heard the following the other day from a friend of Ram Vaswani, who plays golf regularly with Phil Ivey in Vegas.

The post then went on to claim that Phil Ivey lied about his handicap, feigning weakness when in fact (according to the source), he had 'spent the last few months practising around 3 hours a day and getting the best coaching.'

Finally, the account suggested that the three infuriated players lost the round emphatically and ended up owing a combined total of 1.8 million, Ram Vaswani owing the most due to being the only player who completed the course.

Of course, what ensued was the usual hogwash of who paid up, who is still friends with who and, most crucially, did Phil Ivey indeed deceive his firends.

Well, no longer do we need to listen to the tomfoolery of forum guesswork, as today one of the individuals involved responded directly to the thread, subsequently posting their own account of what happened.

So, with that, I present to you Marc 'MrCool' Goodwin's version of events...


"On the basis that the original post begins self-indulgent, semi-successful, boastful etc, don't ask me how but I had an idea how his post may go, in poker terms he gave his hand away. If he had read I was the cause of climate control and poverty in the Third World I guess he would have just jumped in and slagged me off. Sorry I digress, but I feel better!!

It is difficult to know where to start as the original post is so factually incorrect: I last saw Eric Sagstrom (below-left) in Vegas in April 2006, so he never walked off after 9 holes and he may deserve an apology on the basis that "he had no intention of paying" for a game he never attended.

At the start of the game, we said to Phil that as we haven't played for 3 months and he must have improved we need to adjust the handicaps. We could not agree and we were doomed to no game until Ram said, "Does Eric Lingdren still give you 10 shots" to which Phil replied "yes"!! On that piece of information we had a game.

As we always ***** about handicaps throughout the match, Phil suggested that we agree to play 18 holes with no adjustment and then adjust for the next series of games. We agreed. I had 7 pars and a birdie back nine (even though i stormed off after 7 holes in a rage) and we lost 8 holes as they were 9 under for the last 7 holes.

As anyone who plays golf would know, when playing better ball doubles it is very hard to win by 3 or more holes, they finished 14 up lol. We have had the better of Phil in golf games over the last year but our biggest victory was 3 up. We had been spanked but arranged a new revised game later that week. We went out together that night (even though we have severed ties and have all this supposed ill feeling).

Later on we met Eric who informed us that he gives Phil NO SHOTS. We therefore felt aggrieved and Ram asked Phil for an apology. As to whether we pay or not will be discussed in Vegas in April when we next meet.

Let me put this question to you all. If I had turned up with a pro golfer, said we get 10 shots off Erik, before playing and winning, should he pay even a penny? If you think that he has been hustled not cheated and it's just unlucky then you must be of the opinion that we should pay. In saying that, if when we meet and we cant agree we will probably pay and sever ties. To gain an edge, yes, to win at all costs, no thank you. I will let you all know the outcome this April."

I'm a DN(and Ivey) fan...but I don't see how, IF he lied about his golf handicap, he could possibly expect to get paid on a bet that had weight based on his word. We're speaking theoretically here, as none of us were there.

lol, who are all these people crawling out of the woodwork saying they know all these pros involved?

I didn't make this public, Marc did. If he hadn't, I never would have posted that blog, What we had was one side of the story posted on the internet, but the other side of the story wasn't posted. You make one claim that I find odd, you say that, since Marc's is the only version on public record that is the one we should believe. Huh? Why? That simply makes zero sense at all.

So because Marc trashed Phil in his blog with his side of the story, we should simply believe him because Phil Ivey, who doesn't even have a blog, didn't post his side of the story?

I can understand losing more money than you can handle and it causing you to freak oout a little bit, but this whole thing is one of the most ridiculous stories I've heard in a long time. Did they, or did they not, play 72 holes over two days? Did they, or did they not, ask to up the stakes throughout play? Did Phil not pay when he lost money to them?

If they would have quit after 9 holes, or cried foul then, and stopped playing, that would be understandable. However, when you continue to play 36 holes for two straight days you lose all credibility when it comes to crying foul.

I mean really, are we to believe that these guys thought they had the worst of the match but continued to play, and not only play, but raised the stakes?

probably english players who know the men involved and arent just random blog readers/worshippers. For somebody who wasnt involved I am suprised that DN has got involved in this although it will get more traffic to his site. And before anyone suggests it I aint a DN hater and have ready all his blogs and articles over the years ( I was even supposed to be playing a basketball challenge with him in Vegas last year that was sorted at the aussie millions but it never came off). DN why don't you take the time to contact Ram or Marc about this and get their side of things? Its hardly like they are hard to get hold of.

Lol, DN why do you even waste your time arguing with these people on your forums. They never ever concede a point or drop it

If those welching bastards AGREED to the bet and rules before the match - They have to pay. Simple as that.


The fact that they CONTINUED to play is enough evidence that they are welchers.

I'm wondering if i'm sposed to take offense to that blog reader/worshipper comment.

This Hendon Mob link was already posted at the below FCP thread:

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...t&p=1820480

Yeah I'm an American player and a apparent RANDOM blog worshiper/reader.

Sorry next time ill respect you and your 13 posts on our random site

wasnt in marcs blog he took time to answer on a forum similar to this one when people who had heard the strory 5th hand started making accusations. This is the only thing that has actually been written on the subject by any of those involved and there are some huge threads on this topic a couple of months ago. To drag this up a couple of months down the line when they are supposed to be sorting it out when they are at the Bellagio face to face in a few weeks is bad taste. I thought you were above this sort of thing Danny and I personally think Phil is manipulating you to be his mouthpeice before there meet in a short while. It may be good to get all the boys on Phils side before they come over but do you honestly think this is going to help the matter be resolved?

FMP

I'm still gathering that we are mindless blog reading worshippers that are incapable of a valid thought....and now DN is Phil Iveys puppet. This gets better and better, and its destroying my focus on my .01/.02 NLHE game......if i lose another 10 cents i'm gonna get pissed.

That is the best piece of evidence.


If they feel like they are getting "hustled". Why not quit after 9 holes!? Those welchers KEPT PLAYING.

Dude, your criticizing DN for siding with his friend Phil, yet your on here claiming to know the other party and defending them.

Hypocrite?

my post wasnt meant to be offensive in any way and I appologise if it came across that way. The post asking who are all these coming out of the woodwork was aimed at me so I answered as who I was. FCP can confirm I was one of their first members and was a member before DN was even the household name he now is. I thought DN was above all of this thats all, I shall now go back to not posting and bothering your American friends Danny.

I just had a ham sammich smeared with ROFLMAO....mmm tasty

I'll call E-Dog and get to the bottom of this. I'm kind of a big deal.

Sir, if you want to try and maintain the moral high ground as to how things should be left in private why on earth are you bringing up other unrelated events in an attempt to sling mud? Big wiffs of hypocracy here.

Pffft, don't bother. Just ask Eric Rykland. Duh.

Why cant I learn my lesson. It is impossible to have intelligent debates with the majority of posters on this site. Someday maybe ill learn to stay out of these sparring matches.

I just cant help myself

Ok, Just a couple quick questions and thoughts?
How much money are we talking about?
Secondly I am not a golfer but I assume handicap is your average above or below
par?

So how exactly can someone lie about a handicap if it isa an average?

Sorry , I am not a golfer but can someone explain this to me.

Not sure about the amount

Regarding Handicap - there is a pretty specific PGA calculation of how to determine Handicap.

Golf Handicap Calculation - Step 1
A minimum of five scores and a maximum of 20 is required to get started. For each score, the USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating for the courses played are also required. Using those figures, calculate the handicap differential for each round entered using this formula:

(Score - Course Rating) x 113 / Slope Rating

For example, let's say the score is 85, the course rating 72.2, the slope 131.

The formula would be (85 - 72.2) x 113 / 131.
This differential is calculated for each round entered.

Golf Handicap Calculation - Step 2
Figure out how many differentials are being used. Not every differential that results from Step 1 will be used in the next step. If only five rounds are entered, only the lowest differential will be used. If 20 rounds are entered, only the 10 lowest differentials are used. A chart at the bottom of this page shows how many differentials are used based on the number of rounds entered.

Golf Handicap Calculation - Step 3
Get an average of the differentials used by adding them together and dividing by the number used (i.e., if five differentials are used, add them up and divide by five).

Multiply the result by .96 (96-percent). Drop all the digits after the tenths (do not round off) and the result is handicap index.


How many amateurs actually know their "Handicap"?

I could understand them not quitting after 18 holes have been played. Ego's get in the way and figured Phil just shot above his skill level that day and on the second day they would break even.

Losing after 36 holes though , something should have told them they were getting outclassed and to pay up then and walk away.

Yah not a whole lot of sympathy here for em. If I ever was in a position financially to play golf for high stakes, I'm pretty sure Phil Ivey would not be an opponent, no offense to PI.....but wagering with him just doesn't seem +EV.

This is why I love Daniel. He'll say what he wants to if he beleives he's right and thats a good quality you want in a person.

I am totally convinced that a huge portion of the "poker community" upper-echelons are populated by social nitwits with emotionally retarded personalities that haven't expanded or grown past the early years of high school.

There is no doubt that being a great poker player requires certain "disconnects" in the mind; trickery, lying, deceit and the ability to pathologically disregard the well-being of other people aren't built-in traits everyone has as a matter of default- but from a purely sociological perspective, it never ceases to amaze me how sophomoric and juvenile these idiotic "he said" poker community squabbles can be.

Without hyperbole, it is absolutely like watching 15 year olds in the hallway between class.

Apparently, you guys have made so much money and are so comfortable in your lives that you've become entirely unaware of what battles are actually worth investing your energies in. I'm not the sort of guy to wish sickness, death, prison or loss on anyone else just to say "I told you so", but I am starting to think that's what some of you dudes need to get your minds right.

Let the people who this involves settle it amongst themselves. If there is a welcher involved, their reputation as the lowest form of scum will spread without any kick-starting by a bunch of people with such hollow lives that they just cannot fathom living one single day without sticking their noses in the affairs of others.

This is all an urban legend. The supposed golf game never took place. Another false rumor started on the Internet!

That is how Global Warming started...

...Al Gore specifically invented the Internet with that in mind.

seen that coming, apparently Zeatrix got bored with the Lets be sensible thread.....Is there no thread safe anymore!?!?!?

It really is this simple. I suggest he calls everyone involved, gets all sides of the story, and mediates this himself, seeing he worships everyone equally. If he doesn't call anyone of you soon, you should call him ASAP.

I've never played stakes even remotely this high, as a big money match to me is a $100 Nassau but that being said.

Lots of amateurs know their handicap. Most pros have no clue of their handicap because they don't care what they average, seeing as their scratches, and just play even with the course.

When you play someone without a documented handicap you always run the risk of
A ) Being hustled
B ) Having someone not know what their handicap is.

If you average 90 by shooting 10 scores of 100, and 10 scores of 80 then your handicap is not 18. It's around 7.7 but you're not lying if you say you average 90, which means that someone who doesn't know would give you a handicap of 18.

Ivey does not keep a handicap, as he's never posted a score so it's tough to guess how many shots to give him. This always leads to problems, and I tend not to play anybody without a handicap, or if I do play them I won't play them for serious money. But on the occasions that I do play someone without a handicap, if I was getting killed I'd never continue to double the bet. If you're getting waxed by someone and it's because they're getting too many shots, then you just take your beating and try and minimize your losses. I can't imagine a situation where I was losing because I thought the other person was getting too many shots, yet I continued to double the bet to try and get even

For The Attention of Mr Daniel Negreanu

I have never posted on your forum before, but I have to say I am shocked by your most recent blogs and I feel forced to air my view of them.

You are a great poker player and a decent human being, but I think your recent posts do you a disservice.

The first blog completely ridicules a fellow professional (Phil Hellmuth) which I find totally unacceptable. Whatever your view of him, to write the blog you did demonstrates at best a lack of judgement. In any other industry this would be completely unacceptable. Why you feel you have the right to ridicule Phil I have no idea. (And before you ask, no I don't know Phil and frankly I find most of his behaviour obnoxious too, but I would never publically ridicule a fellow professional in my industry whatever my view of him). Incidently, I also found your ridiculing of Mike Matasow on TV similarly unacceptable...and he is supposed to be a friend of yours.

Secondly, the golf bet is none of your business and again I am shocked at your apparent arrogant self-justification of why you had to get involved. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the situation, it is none of your business and you have no right to get involved airing other peoples dirty laundry in public. (and again I know none of the parties involved.) I feel sure you would not wish others to do this to you.

I used to enjoy reading your blogs, but I regret to say in recent months to the casual reader like me, they are becoming increasingly arrogant and self-righteous and
I think you should have a long hard think about what your motives are with your blogs and why you write them.

I suspect most people read your blog because we are interested in your remarkable insights into the world of tournament and cash poker and your interesting and constructive views on many of the world's big issues (e.g. global warming).

In conclusion, may I recommend the following: "Do unto others as you would wish to be done unto you..."

why do i feel a "suck an egg" is forthcoming?

Maybe I missed it, but was there a denial of the bet in there? I wonder if Vaswani will be shpping back all the money he's made off of donks in his lifetime. Anyone have that list?

Just make sure you let us know what happens DN!!!