So I am the bring in with 3 cards below 8 unsuited, if one player completes, and only one I fold, no reason to chase half the pot

1. But what if one completes and another calls and they both have high, is this worth chasing for a complete bet?
1a. Do you release if you catch bad on 4th?

2 or more call I will chase for sure.

2. But I release if I catch bad on 4th and anyone else looks like they are going low. Is this too tight, should I see 5th?



I'm chasing low, 4 to a good low with straight draw on 4th street (6542), 2 opponents are going high. I am calling not raising. I make my low on 7th, but one player may have been chasing flush with low cards and back doored a low, I am sitting on 86 for low.

3. If they both check do I want to bet? flush man makes low as first to act. He's got to bet if he made low doesn't he?

1. Always look for low on 4th even hu. If you don't have 4 to the low by 5th then you can consider releasing.
2. Pressure other lows and protect by raising with made lows and the best low draws, esp. when you have that straight draw.
3. Check call him down when you have a possibly beaten low. Sure he will bet but it's never worth folding.

Against 2 opponents drawing to a naked low, you are making one bet to win one bet. What are you going to do if there is a raising war? What are you going to do if you catch bad or one of your opponents fold? If you are heads up, you are throwing money into the pot to win the money that was in the pot before before it was heads up. Drawing to naked lows with little chance of making highs is loosing eights-or-better poker. You are always lookng to scoop and are much better off drawing to hands that can (lows never scoop unless you also hit a high, highs can on their own). When you don't scoop with high, then half the pot then becomes a consolation prize. Even calling the completed bet with something like 2-5-8o is marginal and continuing if you catch bad on fourth will hurt you. You also end up with some marginal situations in this spot, like let's say you go 2-5-8-5 and then it comes 2-5-8-5-2, now what? If your opponent started out with k-k-j or something of the like he is still has tons of outs to to beat you with two cards to come with a hand like k-k-j-10-7 (2-ks, 3-js, 3-10s, 3-7s, backdoor straight and 6th and 7th pairing) if he doesn't have you beat already.
You will also never sqeeze your opponent off their hand if it is obvious you are chasing a low where they could put the sqeeze on you by betting into eachother.

One of the most ideal situations in Stud8 is when you are the only one in the pot drawing to a high. You are a favorite for half the pot with a chance to scoop. Drawing against a high with a low is throwing good money after bad.

What you are looking for when you actually do draw to a low are 3 cards that can become a high. Three suited/straight cards under an 8, a hand with an Ace and wheel draw or so many opponents where it is profitable to draw to half the pot.

1. In your spot, I would fold. It is equivilant to completing the bet from the small blind with 6-9o. Right price, but the future is bleak and dangerous. If a bunch of people are in the pot and you think you are drawing best for low, your odds are good enough to call.
1a. fold if you brick, 5th street also costs twice as much and you have less cards to come. Still, if there is a ridiculous amount of people in the pot that is the only way you'd still want to see another card
2&3 The problem with chasing just low is things have to come out just right for you to win half and perfect for you to win it all.

the above post is ***-backwards stud8, imho. the idea behind stud8 isn't to make highs and charge lows, it's to make lows and luckbox your way into straights or flushes that scoop when you're freerolling some donk going nuts with kings up. if i see someone playing too many high cards in a stud8 session, i immediately label them a fish and proceed to take all their money.



BG:

generally, see a fourth street with any three to a seven in any spot (the exception would be when there is lots of raising and multiple 6 low door cards). your equity in these spots is good if you're not a donk post-3rd, promise. if you limit yourself to 3 to a 7 and muck 8-low draws, you make straights a lot more than you think, and if you brick, sometimes those "bricks" make you 2p hands that win.

as for your specific questions:

1. not seeing 4th would be a huge mistake when your opponents are going high. HU you might be able to muck things like 247 rainbow, but not often. get a feel for how often your opponents pay you off when you get there (catch any low card and you're functionally freerolling on a wonky gutshot-y thing against a pair) and adjust accordingly. if the villain is not a fan of paying off sometimes (albeit rarely) i will toss 3rd with a 247 type hand.

2. HU, you can muck if you catch bad on 4th. 3-way, it depends on relative position (am i often calling 2 bets on 4th?) as well as comparing the strengths of the high hands (am i going to get free cards because these guys scare each other?). generally, i would say that i will see 5th and toss on the big bet in multiway situations, but that ain't always the case.

3. if i'm reading your situation right, you should be capping 4th every time with a 4-low gutshot multiway. if you whiff 5th and 6th, then make a bad low (relative to boards, not measured absolutely) on the end, c/c is the best line.

Pick up SuperSystem 2.

Read Todd Brunsons Section.

That is all.

QFMFT but that should remain top secret right there we don't want others to read that!

And this is why I crush low-limit stud8. And I do the exactly same thing, anyone who completes QxQ, JxJ, TxT outside of an ante steal position is immediately deemed a fish. I seriously love these players.

yes nothing is nicer than completing a low against some holdem player that can't get rid of a pair of unimproved aces or kings. lots of money to be made. (although I too have been guilty of this "please Lord- please please split it just one time please" philosophy and it hardly ever works...

Thanks

Its funny but I read Todd's section the other day, and when Checky said this game is about chasing low and falling into flushes and striaghts it opened my eyes. I have to admit I have been a just play high hands and let suckers chase lows kind of player, mainly because I play stud8 in horse and in 10 hands you don't get to see 3 suited lows very often. But I am break even at best in this game, while the other games are over all winning games for me.

I will definately change up my play a bit.

Thanks

read the sig.

he's not much of a valuable poster around here.

I disagree.

Remember the platinum rule.
Remember that there are situations where deviating from it is OK, but as long as it is the prevailing philosophy in your Stud 8 play, you're good.
It is much, much better to freeroll a low through 5th, 6th and 7th against NLHE tards who are going high than to push your strictly high hand through two players going low who certainly have you beat for 1/2 the pot, and may get you for both.

The platimum rule is to scoop. You can scoop with a high only hand, but not with a low only. So of course there are times when it's nice to have a (strong) high hand against drawing lows.




If I'm heads up with someone I'd rather be on the high side of it. And I'd love it to be in against two lows who were drawing dead for high.


I guess the moral of the story is context. Or as they say in poker: "It depends".

this is just not right, honestly. highs get freerolled a lot. lows never do. the only time you want to be in there with a high only hand is when you've isolated a low draw on an early street and can take the pot down if they brick out. multiway, one of them will probably be getting there and you'll be getting freerolled by a hand that makes you PAY HUGE when they make their straight/flush. when this happens, you lose a LOT more than you win when you take half of a 3 way pot.

take the following situation: with three low door cards behind and a limped four in front, you hold J9/J, or even 910J ss or something. you should fold on third, no question. i'm guessing you'd like this spot, though?

Instafold with a marginal made high or a strictly high drawing hand.

My cards hit the muck so fast in this situation that they leave flame trails.