Villian is tight agressive. PFR is fairly high too. Around 14%.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J:diamond:, J:club:.
3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 2:heart:, K:heart:, A:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 7:club: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

I don't see why you don't check the turn, you'll probably save a bet that way. If he's tight aggressive, he has AA, KK, AK, AQ, QQ. I doubt he has AA, KK, AK he would raise the flop to see where he was. It's probably Q Q. If he checks the turn behind you, you might be able to pick it up if a heart doesnt hit, but not often will that happen. Shut down after the flop. You gain more information by knowing what he does on the turn if it's checked to him.

On the turn I fully intend to fold to a raise. Why don't I check? Because there is a good chance if I do he will bet no matter what. Then do I call a bet or fold. If I plan on calling, then betting is better as it costs the same. I'm not ready to give up on this pot yet without him showing any aggression on the flop.

Actually, bet the river too

You have fold equity on a Q or a K or similar hands, and you've shown aggression all the way, without a playback on the turn

Check/fold the turn.

Also true, but my advice is prudent since you bet the turn

I would actually check/fold this flop.

I thought about that, too. You're probably right.

[color=blue][/color]

Rocket,

the jacks are no good. Why keep spewing chips?

especially w/ the COs PF cap, no stealer is capping w/crap there

You say the jacks are no good, but don't say when to give up on it. You have to at least take a stab at it after the flop though do you not? The lack of a raise to my betting after the flop tells me that they are not so sure that their hand is best (based on the pre-flop capping that you were able to deliver). The way I showed it being played, you have put in one small bet and one big bet already, so one more big bet for you on the river isn't going to break you, and you have a chance to take it down right there (if they were on a draw and missed). When they checked it down on the river, it tells me that they have shyte, but that shyte may be better than your jacks. :wink:

I have given up on so many pots just like this one by not playing agressive, and when it was all said and done I would have won a fair number of them (impossible to put a % on them) had I taken those stabs at it. Do they add up to more than I would have saved had I quit on it after the flop, hard to guesstimate. :?

I'd give up on the turn. You have two overcards that more then likely hit the capper. so I'll take a stab on the flop, but the villian obviously hit so he's calling you down. The villian is takiing a way ahead/way behind line here, so why chip barf here

Until I see the results, I'm not convinced that the jacks are no good to a bet on the river. We will never know what the other guy WOULD have done to a bet ont he river (because the posted didn't like I was suggesting), but we will be able to see if there was a possibility (such as my prediction of queens with the queen of hearts). :wink:
BTW, I'm no Nostradamus, and I'm certainly no poker pro, I'm just a guy who is giving his opinion on a possible alternate way to play when that situation comes up. As stated above, I've given up on them many times, some of those laydowns were the proper play, others weren't. 8)

That's a losing mentality. No offense, but thinking like that makes me money.

What part is a losing mentality? The fact that the poster may or may not have won the hand with one more big bet on the river? Limit poker can't be just about the math, can it? Is how you play the hand going to change based on what pocket pair you hold (say you had pocket queens instead, still no heart)?
We don't know what level this is played at (could be $0.05/0.10, could be $1000/$2000.) Based on the math, it shouldn't matter, but based on how people actually play at the different levels, the pre-flop capping could have been with just about anything. I've seen pre-flop capping on $1/2 tables with hands as bad/good as 10 jack (they were suited), so the opponent could have just about anything here, which you must take into consideration. 95% of the time I would have layed it down after taking my one stab at it after the flop, but based on who I was up against I might take the approach I suggested. Didn't I hear somewhere before that poker is about everything BUT the cards (or something like that)? In our case, our cards aren't that great, so we need to either make them great in the eyes of our opponent (to try to win the hand), or just give up.

Pardon me for thinking outside of the box. :roll:

This part:



"Until I see his AA I don't think my 99 isn't good."

*stamp* Opinion approved by Swift_Psycho.

Rocket...you can call it "thinking outside the box", or give it any other cute name you like, but your play is pretty wrong. If I read your analysis right, you have to take a stab at the flop because you have 3rd pair. That didn't work, but you cant slow down on the turn...or the river. You're basically making the decision to bet every street whatever comes before the flop. I want to sit on your left sometime.

I dont like the raise on the flop. Check/fold is what I'd likely do. JJ is a strong hand preflop, but this is a very bad flop for you. If CO is a tight raiser, the cap preflop means you're behind and drawing to 2 outs after this flop, and that's ignoring the flush draw/redraw. Jh might be dead for you. If he's a loose raiser, you're ahead postflop maybe half the time here, and you're out of position.

If you really want to push this hand, check/raise the flop to send a strong message now while the bets are still small. If he 3-bets the flop, folding cant be too wrong. You've got two overs and a flush draw on the board. You cant just sit there betting into a smooth caller on every street. That's not thinking outside the box, that's spewing chips.

Anyone waiting to see the results before deciding what the right play is has NO understanding of what "correct play" actually means.

I haven't seen anyone suggesting check raising the flop and then seeing his reaction. If he raises back, you're beat. If he just calls, bet the turn and check/fold the river if he calls. He MAY lay a KQs, or KJs on the turn. You never know.

We didn't suggest it because it's not a good idea, just chip spewing. Do you really think the guy has K-Q or K-J and capped it pre-flop?

what if you had pocket 3's here on the flop? do you bet? then do you keep betting trying to push your opponent off his hand? If no, then why do it with Jacks? It sounds good and they look good, but on this flop, they're no good. Don't keep betting just because you have pocket jacks.

lol
thats funny

You guys aren't looking at the possible holdings we are against here, and how the play is indicating what we are most likely up against.

Depending on the level we are playing at (do we know this yet?), I think we have to give it a pretty broad spectrum:

Aces, Kings, Queens, Jacks, Tens, Nines, AK, AQ, AJ, A10.

After the flop of 2, King, Ace of hearts, we bet and got called. If the CO had pocket aces or pocket kings, I believe they would have raised us here, so I rule those two hands out. Same with Ace King. Ace queen through to ace 10 is a possibility here, as are pocket queens, Jacks, tens and nines. :?

After the turn of the 5 of diamonds, we bet again and got called only. The lack of agression tells me that this person is on a draw, so if they have one of the hands I have indicated in the paragraph above, they have the Queen, Jack, ten, or nine of hearts, with either an ace (to make top pair) or a queen (pair of queens), jack (pair of jacks), ten (pair of tens), or nine (pair of nines). :?

After the river, we checked (which I don't necessarily agree with), and the CO checked. Why would they check the river? Because they have what appears to be a weak hand to them. Weak hands to them (in my opinion) would not be ace queen, ace jack, or ace ten in this case, so I put them on a pocket pair with the heart, most likely queens, and maybe even jacks (wouldn't that be something!). :!:

Not sure why this has all of a sudden become a personal attack against me, as I am simply trying to put forth another way of looking at the hand. So there are two overcards on the board...who cares. For one more big bet, I think it is worth it to put in a bet on the river, possibly getting the pocket queens or jacks to fold (you are saying that we should fold our pocket jacks, so would the same logic not apply to their jacks and queens?)
:wink:

you are being a bit paranoid
so, to put it politely, i think you need to check/fold the flop.

[quote]Anyone waiting to see the results before deciding what the right play is has NO understanding of what "correct play" actually means.[/quote][/quote]

Are you referring to me? I am not waiting for the results to decide what to do, as I have given my opinion of something I might do maybe 1 time out of ten, with the other 9 times I would check/fold on the turn (not the flop), depending on who I was against and/or what level I was playing at.

This is a great example of a hand you just have to let go.
Sure JJ is a good hand, but it's an easy fold when it gets capped pre-flop and the flop comes with an A and a K.

Being aggressive is good.
But, good players know the difference between having balls, and spewing chips.

The turn bet is much worse than the flop bet. When the villian calls a suited flop, you have to assume you are beat here, and give up on the turn.

It's really not that complicated.

One other thing to note which people are (seemingly) not looking at is that the CO is described as being "tight agressive". CO certainly hasn't shown any of that (agressiveness) this hand. I think our jacks are good, unless he had queens, in which case I regret not having bet on the river (to possibly induce a fold). 8)

Sigh.
The fact that he is T/A gives you all the more reason to fold here.
What would he be calling you down with that you are beating here if he is T/A?

The reason he is just calling is because the flop is suited.
He likely has AQ or QQ without a heart. I think he would raise the flop with AA, AK, or KK

OBS - end this madness once and for all. Fill us in on the big mystery, so we can put this one to bed. As I have said, at least 9 times out of ten, I would play this hand conventionally (ie. just like the rest of the sheep), so lets just see what he did have, and move on.

You should stop using this results-based thinking.

Even if he won the hand, it doesn't make his turn bet correct.

I could raise 97 off suit PF and win the hand, but it wouldn't justify my play.

Or say, I have AQs and raise PF and the flop comes.

K Q 4
There is a bet, then a raise, then a three-bet.
I could call, then call the turn and river and win with a pair of queens. But it wouldn't make my call on the flop correct.


Point being, the results to this hand really don't matter one bit.

[quote=Absolute]You should stop using this results-based thinking.

Even if he won the hand, it doesn't make his turn bet correct.

I could raise 97 off suit PF and win the hand, but it wouldn't justify my play.

Or say, I have AQs and raise PF and the flop comes.

K Q 4
There is a bet, then a raise, then a three-bet.
I could call, then call the turn and river and win with a pair of queens. But it wouldn't make my call on the flop correct.


Point being, the results to this hand really don't matter one bit.[/quote][/quote]
Then you are using only the math to dictate your play. Ive discussed this before, where I have advocated that there is much more to Hold-em (in this case Limit Hold-em) than just the math. You are not taking into consideration your opponents play-style before this hand, your position in the hand, play-style of your opponent during this hand, etc. I've heard many a pro say that you have to mix up your play so that you are not too predictable. If you are only looking at the math when you play, then when do you mix up your play? I have been trying to modify my play to be more much math oriented since I started looking at this forum a few months ago, but I still keep reverting back to my non-analytical thinking every once in a while (like I have here). :wink:

The original poster put this hand up in the forum for a reason. The majority says that he should check/fold on the turn and/or flop every time, regardless of anything else that we know or think about our opponent, presumably based solely on what we hold. I agree with that thinking in general, but why did the poster put this hand up if something fishy didn't happen here? :?

You really don't make much sense.
He posted it because he wanted advice on how to play it. This isn't the bad beat section or the "neat hand" section. This is strategy.

The reason people post here is to get advice on hands they are confused about, not to post hands and let us all try to guess the results.

Im having a very hard time understanding why you don't get this.
It's very simple.

Based on your thinking, how could the poster possibly be confused, as it is a clear check/fold, no matter what the opponent had.
This screams to me that he got beat by not betting the river (to the queens), or maybe even tied (pocket jacks vs pocket jacks).
Stop arguing with me, because I agree with you at least 9 times out of ten. If you can't handle the fact that there are other opinions our there (in this case mine 1 time out of 10), then don't bother posting.
:roll:

I'll keep posting, thanks.

glad to hear it, but plese try to refrain from making it a personal thing when someone posts a different opinion that yours. :wink:

It's not personal.

But it takes away from the point of the forum when you try to convince people to listen to results based thinking.

this is a free country and blah blah blah, but it doesn't mean that we need to be giving advice to people that is going to cause them to lose money when they play.

again, your are indicating that my alternate way to play the hand maybe 1 time out of 10 is results based, which it clearly isn't. I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, as I agree with the majority at least 9 times out of 10. Losing one more big bet here on the river isn't going to make or break anybody, and it gives you a chance to win the hand that checking it down doesn't do. That is all I am saying.
:wink: