So I've been trying for the past several months to get something started again in online play. I haven't been able to deposit too much. Started with $50 several months ago and over the course of a month that disappeared. Redeposited the next chance I got and the same thing happened. Now I am trying again, my concern is that every time I have lost that money online it has happened the exact same way and I cannot decide whether it is just bad luck, bad bankroll management (which to some degree i know is true, but hey... most places don't offer games lower than 5c/10c) or bad play. I always start out doing well, playing 5c/10c NL holdem, buying in between $4-$10 usually. Every time I start out building it up slightly and then it's like a hit a wall for a little while where i just hover and can't really win or lose anything. Then it starts to slowly drop back down. Now, i know it's not all because of bad beats but man do I sure feel like it is... like for example this time I am just now starting to hit my bad streak... as usual I started with $50, was building slowly.. up to about $80, stayed between $70 - $90 for a little while, and in the last few days it has dropped back down to $35 slowly.. Ifeel like the bad beats/situations are just coming and coming hard. Ex. Last night I lost $16 in a 10 min. period, first called someones random all in, with AA, he flopped two pair. 3 hands later I flopped a straight with 10,9 (678 on the board) bet it hard on the flop with 3 callers, turn was a 6, bet hard again.. everyone stayed in.. river.. another 6. I checked and fireworks started and i folded my straight only leaving me with a lil bit... (i know i was pot committed, but I am not calling when I know I'm now beat) I reloaded and two minutes later I flopped top two pair with A Q on an A Q 7 5 3 board, only to find someone who turned a set of 5's. I decided to play a bit this morning, called a small raise with 10dJd in the BB flop is Qd,Js,5d... raiser bets, i make a small raise, he calls. turn is a 9 making me open ended, with a flush draw and second pair. He checks, I push all in for a slight over bet of the pot (by like 20c) he calls me with AsKh river is the 10c... sigh.. he rakes the pot.

Okay, sorry got off on a bad beat tangent, but my point is that I read all the posts about bankroll management, I read how people have built their bankrolls from literally nothing, yet I feel like I'm playing perfectly fine and this should be working for me yet it seems like I cannot fade the bad situations long enough to keep building. Any advice, I have about $35 left and I'm not sure if I should continue trying to build like I am, or try something else.

Note: It doesn't feel good when I sit here trying to play within my limits and build slowly while my friend deposits $50 and immediately sits in a 25/50c game and wins a $160 pot the second hand he plays by sucking out against Aces, Kings and some moron in there with 10 J. (he turned a set of 9's)

yes

If you are a winning player, then even $50 isn't even for an NL game where you buyin at $10. Even $4. That's only 12.5 buyins. The recommended is 20 buyins, minimum. And that takes into account that you are in fact a winning player.

I don't know if this would be best for you, but if you could wait until you had say $250 or so, and then deposited, and then made sure you adhere to proper BR management rules, etc, I think you'd probably feel a lot better.

I know, for a fact, that I feel like I can't play my proper game if I don't even have an adequate amount of money on a site. If I only have $100 on a site, I really don't even feel comfortable in a $50 NL game, say, even though my BR is significantly larger, and big enough for $50 NL, overall. It's a mental thing for me. For you, it could be that, combined with the fact that you just can't fade variance with such a short roll.

Furthermore, like I said, the risk of ruin calculations (BR management) take it for granted that you are in fact a winning player. I don't know that you are, as a matter of fact, a VERY small portion of the players are. I don't even know if I am one in the very long run, especially given my recent downswing.

Regardless, if I were you, when you do play again, I would strongly recommend posting the hands that you feel you may have messed up, or you feel you played well, even. I'm not talking about hands where you get it all in with top set vs a flush and the donkey sucks out, etc. I mean real hands, real decisions, etc. That's my recommendation. Beyond that, read and reply to the rest of the hands posted in the NL section, or whatever game you wish to play.

Beyond that, read all the poker books you can get your hands on. Submerge yourself in the game (without losing the rest of your life, obv).

IMO, that's truly the best way to deal with your problem. I was like that when I first started too. I would deposit $50 and play for a bit, but invariably lose it. The fact of the matter, at that time, I was not a winning player, definitely. Now I might be, who knows, but it's because I did what I listed above.



Cheers.

- Zach

Thanks for your answer Zach, I appreciate it. However I probably should have explained this a little more.

The issue I'm having is more towards online play. I am by far a winning player in live games, although strictly home games as the nearest casino is about 12 hours away; and I am a winning player online as well. I had a good run summer before last and kept a playing bankroll of about a grand online and cashed out about $4500 over the summer. However, that went to pay my tuition for the following semester and then I had an unexpected circumstance arise and had to cash out the remaining money. I took a while off from playing online to concentrate on school (although still playing live) and after classes calmed down is when I've been trying to rebuild again. As far as books go, I've read SS, HOH, and some other random books and feel like I have really studied the game. This is why it is baffling me as to why I cannot seem to get things started again online. Oh.. and I would love to stick to just live games; however they have become few and far between around town now sadly. I might take your advice to try to save a little while before my next attempt (not that i'm giving up on this one yet) Hope that makes things a little more clear as to my frustration with this. Oh, and you said to post some hands, here's one I played a little while ago.

I have KK UTG, raised to 35c. SB and BB call. Flop is J 7 6 rainbow. Both check to me, I bet about 80c. SB calls, BB check raises the minimum. (i maybe could have released my hand here however for a minimum raise I felt like I should see what the turn brought) so I called, turn paired top pair. SB now leads out with a pot sized bet, BB calls. Seems like a pretty easy fold to me now??? Unless they were getting way out ahead of their hands if they were on a draw, but i don't think both of them could be on the straight draw. What do you think?

Yeah ok, my remark about not being a winning player wasn't necessarily aimed at you, but the general public, I guess.


The thing is, it's really hard to rely on running good for the first xxxx number of hands to get yourself a proper BR again. That's why I recommend waiting until you have a little bit more to deposit.

From my personal experience I've been able to start my bankroll of with $10-$25 at three different sites. Obvouisly you have to avoid suck outs and win a number of hands to get in the clear, but if you're a decent player you should be fine with $50. I would play $10 NL and buy-in with $5 at each table. It's good to have at least 20 buy-ins as an absolute minimum, but I think you'd be fine with half of that at micro limits.

yeah, unless you have almost no $$ left, fold those K's on the turn.

I lost a ton online when I would buy i for $50 or $100.
Then, when i decided to get serious and play Limit, I started with $250 and played 50c/$1

Maybe the small amounts lead to recklessness, espcially as it dwindles down and you start to donk it away.

I hear online players are much better these days, though,too

You need far more ooooooo's in your Whoooo

done.

Maybe you shouldn't play NL?

I've been playing at UB primarily for 2 or so years. I'm a winning player when i'm not screwing around and donking off my roll. It took 2 years for me and 1k in funds to realize that my approach was not all that sound. I would wreck 6 seat limit games at .05/.10, sitting with 2 dollars or so and leaving with 30. My problem was looking for the big score....MTT's. I'd buy in to the low ones and cash for maybe 4x what I bought it at, or final table once in a blue moon. Then I would play Bigger MTT's with 10 or 30 dollar buyins and fail miserably. I'd be sick about it and enter another one or play 5 or 10 dollar sng's to try and win it back. About that time I'd go on a horrible downswing with sng wins or cashes. Blackjack only helped the slow steady leaking of money fluids, til I just didn't want to play anymore. I was self admittedly stupid. I drained my accounts and went to only playing freerolls or playing at the NOLP site.

After a break of a few months, I was playing a freeroll on UB and I decided to check my accounts to see if there were any crumbs left. One of them had .85 cents. I decided I was gonna build it into a roll, and practice the most self discipline ever. Most of that discipline was revelations I had reading through this forum. (thanks guys). I don't play tourneys now at all..I've been strictly sticking to the .01/.02 tables at UB and in a week have turned .85 cents into almost 25. Some of that is bonus dollar conversion so its not that astounding, but I am winning. The difference between now and then is that if I get my AA drawn out for all my stack at a table, instead of reloading and chasing the loss, I quit, and take a break. Go play free games or something. All the hours i've logged at play chip and freerolls have helped me lay down big hands that i'm probably winning with preflop, but something about the person that raises it or is all in tells me I won't be winning at the river. Two things I do so I don't lose a buy in at a micro table...1. I rarely call a pre-flop all in unless I have the person sufficiently covered and there is no one else in the hand, and I have a monster. I think about it real long if a big stack pushes all in and I have AK or something. Its easier to think of it this way, you got .02 cents in now, Big Stack wants the pot (hence the all in) I can lose .02 or I can lose my whole stack, I'd rather dump the AK and lose .02. I've been paying attn on this site, and more often than not, when I tangle with a big stack for all my chips, they usually win. Call it paranoia, call it whatever, Unless I am reasonably sure that I have them beat. I don't do it. 2. Sometimes you gotta just let the big ones go, they're only cards. Yesterday, I'm playing in a micro limit game. I get AA, UTG raises min, I double it.. 2 more people call, UTG repops all in for 1.85. I almost folded the AA...and I'll tell ya why. I didn't want to play it for all my chips, crazy as that seems. I wanted to have control of the pot, with it. UTG took it from me. Against my better judgement, i played it....he spiked trip Qs and i lost my roll. When I can listen to myself and lay down a big hand like that because its not playing like I want it too, thats when I know I've arrived.

Online is a quirky animal, you just gotta be able to adapt to the different players that come to the table, if that means folding more than playing...so be it. If you can't win anything, leave the table and find another. Lastly, if you get stacked, my best advice is to just leave and if you want to play more poker, play something free. All this post probably only makes sense to me. lol, but I gave it a shot.

Ha, your story is the complete opposite of mine,

They only way I've made big bucks was by cashing big in MTT's.. I'm worthless at cash games...

Don't get me wrong, I've cashed in MTTs, and usually get very deep, but afterwards I made a critical error...I played outside my roll, and then when I lost in a 30 dollar buyin or 5 straight 5 dollar sngs, I'd keep entering tourneys to get the money back. We're talking like 5-10 tourneys a day. The problem was, I didn't have the right mindset anymore to have any business in them. I swear the only thing that has changed my game is reading through some of these other posts and basically having revelation after revelation about what I'm doing wrong. I'll play MTT's again, once i get a serviceable roll, and if I lose....I won't feel the need to keep rolling the dice hoping to hit big, I'll just go back to a cash game and recoup the buyin, take another shot another day. For me, coming off a loss (usually to a horrible suckout) in MTTs, its just not good for me to enter another one at least until I can rinse the bad taste out of my mouth. Another thing I was doing horribly wrong in MTTs and ring games was picking out one person who's play style was annoying me. And trying to take them out. I'm talking bout the guy that re-raises every pot....or is all in every pot, thats broken my stack or roll many times. I'm trying to keep this short and sweet but to give you an illustration, the other day i was sat at a table and even though I stayed out of pots with this guy he was just insanely hot. Any 2 and he would win for big pots...busting AA with J2 suited, AK with K10, stuff like that...it was just sick. Normally I'd try and trap that person, I just avoided pots with him like the plague. Eventually I saw a flop with them, and I flopped the nut flush...by watching him and not tangling with him, i realized i could probably double up here, and i min raised hoping to provoke a huge raise...it did, and I dragged the pot. I dunno, i'm probably rambling...there are so many things I think about now when I'm playing, but for me..my state of mind is the most important...If i'm steamed, i just can't play for money. Plain and simple.

orly

try harder.
few people read long post, especially from posters they aren't sure deserve attention.

You sound like you have a general idea of what you're doing wrong; now's the time to take a systematic approach to finding your leaks. Start a "borderline decision log": Every time you make a decision you're unsure of, write down the hand, your borderline decision, your reasoning behind it, the outcome (good and bad), and what you would do differently (if anything). Pretty soon, patterns will start to emerge and you can stop doing the things that are losing you money. Write down "overplayed AQ" enough times, and it won't take long to realize you seriously need to cut that sh*t out. LOL

Also, invest some time in studying poker from the ground-up: even if you consider yourself a good player, it's still worth it to read a strategy book all the way through, every day for a month. If you'd rather not pay $30 a pop, you can "rent" a study table in a bookstore cafe for the price of a cup of coffee and sit there all night. Good luck!

save up, start with 200/ 20 buy ins. You play more hands an hour online, so more beats happen. If you are actually a winning player you will be able to move up. 5 buy ins isn't enough no matter how good someone is.

And don't listen to anything from the guy who wants to fold AA preflop.