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Dan The Man
Recently I played in a small stakes Sit & Go and got down to five-handed. Blinds were $100/$200 and I was second in chips with $3,015. Four of us had around $2,700-$3,300 and there was one short stack under $2,000. I was playing tight throughout the tournament but I was probably the most active player when it got short-handed. Everyone folded to me on the button with card_spades_a.gif card_hearts_q.gif . I raised to $600, the small blind folded, and the big blind reraised the minimum to $1,200. I'd been watching this player and he was playing pretty tight. He reraised big preflop with Aces, Kings, and Tens. I didn't know if he was loosening up later on, but he probably had a strong hand because it looked like he wanted me to play. My gut feeling was that he had AK or Jacks or Tens. I was getting such a good price that I called.

The flop is card_spades_4.gif card_diamonds_a.gif card_spades_3.gif . He bets the minimum, $200. The pot is now $2,700 and I'm getting over 13-to-1. I have $1,850 left and he has $1,270. Can I possibly lay this down here? I'm not sure he would bet that flop without an Ace. But he may have just wanted to put out a feeler bet and see if I'd dump my hand. Obviously I hate calling here. I'm either way ahead or way behind and it's push or fold.
Jdr999
Easy push. If he has AK, there is nothing you can do about it in the situation you described.
Also, folding here is horrible. If they have AK, you are 15% to win, and about 2% to chop. Also hate calling, don't get any information.
I would be shocked if you folded or called.
StupidKid
I would guess you're ahead in most spots here, he could easily repop you with A8+ if he thinks you're stealing on the button and you've been playin a lot of hands. I shove the flop
NEtwowilldo
What's wrong with just calling here? You're obviously not sure if you're beat so if you want the "information" you're looking for, It's going to cost you the same amount anyways. You might as well try and get a cheap showdown. His bet on the flop seems extremely weak, so you're probably ahead. He could have reraised with TT or something and is now trying to take down the pot cheaply when the flop is unfavorable.

You should try and keep the pot small in this spot. If you don't know whether or not your ahead, and your considering going all in, for 200 you might as well just call and see what the turn brings.
cubbybri
I think you are up against ace something. If he has been raising big with the PPs then why the min all of the sudden. He could be mixing up his play but you said small stakes so I make the assumption he thinks you are stealing(you have been active) and he hopes to make you think he is strong by raising you back with his ace. I guess his lower PPs he may do this with as well.

The flop bet tells me the same thing. He has hit A with weak kicker and would rather just have you out and of course fearful of the fact that you may have a hand or has 99-22 thinking you may just go away.

Might also try with the other pocket pairs as well but I think you are ahead way more than you are behind. I like the call here since either way ahead or way behind. Why risk stack if way behind. See the turn and see what happens, you can open up some redraws on the turn as well for cheap if you are behind.

If behind, I'd be much more comfortable putting the rest of stack in a spade comes on turn or a 5 or 2 even, giving yourself an even better chance to catch up.

But pushing flop also ok as there are a ton of lesser hands calling you. Also if board texture different I would push flop too. If 2 hearts rather than 2 spades or middle range cards( like A67).
StupidKid
QUOTE (cubbybri @ Monday, March 12th, 2007, 5:38 AM) *
I think you are up against ace something. If he has been raising big with the PPs then why the min all of the sudden. He could be mixing up his play but you said small stakes so I make the assumption he thinks you are stealing(you have been active) and he hopes to make you think he is strong by raising you back with his ace. I guess his lower PPs he may do this with as well.

The flop bet tells me the same thing. He has hit A with weak kicker and would rather just have you out and of course fearful of the fact that you may have a hand or has 99-22 thinking you may just go away.

Might also try with the other pocket pairs as well but I think you are ahead way more than you are behind. I like the call here since either way ahead or way behind. Why risk stack if way behind. See the turn and see what happens, you can open up some redraws on the turn as well for cheap if you are behind.

If behind, I'd be much more comfortable putting the rest of stack in a spade comes on turn or a 5 or 2 even, giving yourself an even better chance to catch up.

But pushing flop also ok as there are a ton of lesser hands calling you. Also if board texture different I would push flop too. If 2 hearts rather than 2 spades or middle range cards( like A67).


What - is it just me who doesn't get this? Why the **** hearts over spades? You have the A of spades so if you're giving a **** about flushes then spades are surely the ones you want....
jmbreslin
How small are the stakes? I'm not sure how often players in small stakes SnG's actively defend their blinds with raises like this, so I'm going to guess he re-raised PF with KK. His small flop bet most likely says, "I have a hand worth betting but I'm scared of that Ace; I'm going to throw out a small bet and see what he does." I'd use your position and put some pressure on him by reraising a decent amount - you'd probably take the pot right there.
cubbybri
QUOTE (StupidKid @ Monday, March 12th, 2007, 7:47 AM) *
What - is it just me who doesn't get this? Why the **** hearts over spades? You have the A of spades so if you're giving a **** about flushes then spades are surely the ones you want....



I won't say this is correct but to me I think I'm ahead and villain has shown aggression (although little). If by chance I am behind, there are a ton of cards that will improve me if I am behind. A spade or something that will lead me to a gutshot, two pair, etc.

On a board that has a 2 flush to something else, the next card will less likely help me and more likely help the villain. Since I think I'm most likely ahead, I push.

If deeper stacked, I would not care so much and reraise this min raise for info but If on this texture board where I think I am ahead and I have a lot of cards that will improve me, let's give the lead to villain and see a cheap turn since stacks are shorter.

Besides him being on a spade flush draw, most cards are safe if you are ahead and if behind you give yourself opportunity to see cheap turn and give yourself some extra outs.

If he does hit his flush, you have outs to the nut flush.

Hope this makes more sense.

In many instances I like the repop on flop but I believe if WB, why push if you can be in a better situation on the turn.

So to quit babbling, the WA/WB situation(where I currently feel ahead but do not want to risk everything on it) plus the BD possibilities (nut flush, dummy straight) make seeing a cheap turn and not risking your whole stack a ideal situation in my opinion.

This may not be optimal but I say why risk all your chips when you are in a good chip position to win.
Kuge
I believe laying it down would be the worst play here. Calling would be the 2nd worst.

It seems that he has either a PP (I would think JJ or TT here, but all are equally possible), or possibly KQ suited. Unless he has AA or hit a set, you are way ahead in this situation (I honestly think he isn't holding AK at all). His bet looks like extreme weakness and that he has a possible flush draw and doesn't want to see you bet big on the flop, basically forcing him to go all-in. On the other hand, the only other time I would see that kind of bet is if he is holding a set and it trying to look really weak to get you to raise with the A high flop.

But here I'm 85% sure you are ahead and 15% sure he's got a better hand than you. But here, a raise should occur.
linkwood
Personally i like just calling here. seems to me that he doesn't have ak or aa, or else he's playing it like an idiot, and you have the backdoor nut draw, so you're not drawing dead. if he has kk or worse, or a bad ace he may put more money in the pot, thinking you have just the flush draw. if you push you won't get called by most of the hands that he may have played like that. you may get called by aj, a10, maybe even a9, a8, but i can't see a worse ace calling you (unless its two pair of course). you will definitely get called when you're beat. call me a wuss but i take the passive line here.
rog
The reason you are more likely to push with 2 hearts on board, is you dont have the redraw if a third heart falls, so you have to protect your hand more aggressively against flush draws.

Hmmm...I really like a call here. If you really are WA/WB, then pushing wins you nothing when you're ahead, and loses everything when you're behind. That cant be correct. Folding clearly cant be correct. Fold to a min bet getting 13:1 with TP2K? I dont think so. Any meaningful re-raise commits you. I flat call and hope he takes another stab at it on the turn. I really think this is a blocker bet from a weaker ace.
jmbreslin
I'm not sure about the weaker A. Villain has been identified as a tight player who has only reraised with AA, KK, and TT. Suddenly he's going to attempt to block a steal by reraising with a weak A? Possible, but I still think KK is more likely. This is small stakes and most players at those levels aren't nearly as tricky as at the higher levels.
cubbybri
If KK, I don't think it changes much than if A -rag. The only reason I think Ax is that he has reraised big with the high PPs. This was a min reraise. I guess possible as big reraise commits his chips but he is already committed so why not push reraise with KK.

Unless he has done this with AA, I don't think it chnages the hand much.
Gallo
QUOTE (cubbybri @ Monday, March 12th, 2007, 2:55 PM) *
If KK, I don't think it changes much than if A -rag. The only reason I think Ax is that he has reraised big with the high PPs. This was a min reraise. I guess possible as big reraise commits his chips but he is already committed so why not push reraise with KK.

Unless he has done this with AA, I don't think it chnages the hand much.


Ok, I did a move very similar to this one yesterday in an 18 man SNG. I was 2nd in chips. the CL raised it to either 2x or 3xBB. Anyway, I minimum reraised him with AQ, I was in the cutoff. With my minimum reraise I was basically telling him that I also had a very good hand and would be more than willing to put my chips in the pot IF I was forced too, I know AQ isn't AK or AA but at this stage when blinds were escalating AQ is pretty good. So like I said, I was telling the CL that I also had a big hand so be careful if he tries to pull a continuation bet without a made hand. Well, I missed everything, but so did he and we actually checked it down all the way. CL had AJoff.

So just from this little example, it could mean that villain does have a something like AQ or AJ. I definitely don't think he has a big pair or even AK. I think he would shove with hands like that before the flop. His minimum bet on the flop does mean he has an Ace, like I said maybe AJ or AQ and he just wants to get to the river as cheaply as possible also.

That's just my opinion of the situation.
NEtwowilldo
QUOTE (rog @ Monday, March 12th, 2007, 1:35 PM) *
pushing wins you nothing when you're ahead, and loses everything when you're behind.



This describes perfectly why you should just call.

Getting information is too costly here. Save those "information raises" for limit hold' em.
NEtwowilldo
QUOTE (DanielNegreanu @ Saturday, February 17th, 2007, 8:12 PM) *
Waiting till the turn for more information:

Another bone of contention I have with certain authors is the theory that you should play your hands aggressively on the flop so as to better define your hand, and at the same time, to gain more information from your opponents. This theory is actually very effective in limit hold’em, but that theory doesn’t translate well to no limit tournaments.
The main reason for that, is simple: it’s too expensive. In limit hold’em, a raise represents just one extra unit, but in no limit hold’em, if you are going to raise someone on the flop to “find out where you are at” it will cost you a pretty penny. Let’s look at an example:

With blinds at 50-100 a player from early position makes it 300 and you call with Ah Jh. The big blind calls so three of you see the flop: Ad 8s 3h. The big blind checks and the pre-flop raiser bets out 800. If you were to raise him here, a standard raise would cost you about, say, 2400 in chips. So let’s say you do that, the big blind folds, and now the first raiser calls the bet. What information have you gained exactly? What if the under the gun player re-raises you? Well in this case, it would seem as though you’ve gained some valuable information and your AJ is likely behind. You could fold and take your 2400 loss.
Now, in this same situation, let’s look at the benefits of just calling on the flop and you’ll see that all of the information that cost you 2400 on the flop, you can get with an 800 call on the flop coupled with a reevaluation on the turn.

So now you just call on the flop and the big blind folds. The turn card is a Q and now your opponent bets 1600. You still aren’t sure if your AJ is the best hand, but the fact that your opponent bet again should lean you towards thinking that you are beat. Since you are unsure, though, you call the 1600.

Now, at this point, it’s cost you the exact same amount of chips had you raised on the flop, the only difference is that you’ve made it all the way to the river. To help you figure out the best course of action on the river you have the following information: My opponent raised before the flop and followed through with a continuation bet on the flop. I called the bet, a Queen hit the turn yet my opponent wasn’t afraid and bet once again. I called that bet as well, so if my opponent makes a big bet at the river he has to know that I have a strong hand and am not on a draw.

That’s a lot of information. Your opponent could still bluff you on the river, but the same could be said about his flop re-raise. He may be coming over the top of you on the flop with a weaker ace, or just as a bluff.

There is one other key benefit to smooth calling on the flop in this situation rather than raising: you allow yourself a chance to suck out! If your opponent has, say, AK, bets the 800, you make it 2400, and now he re-raises you off the hand, you’ve just lost 2400 with no chance to get lucky. However, if you just call the flop, you could get really lucky and spike a Jack on the turn or river. Or, you could even make a backdoor flush with the hand and possibly win a big pot.

The only thing that’s better about raising on the flop is that you protect your hand from being outdrawn when you are ahead, and you also get information about your opponents hand quicker. Getting outdrawn with AJ on an A-8-3 rainbow flop should be the least of your concerns. If you are in the lead, then you will be substantially in the lead. A worse ace can only hit one of three kickers, and a pocket pair can only hit one of two cards. The biggest threat is a total of five outs if your opponent has a hand like 8-9. That’s hardly something to be overly concerned about. As for the other benefit, who cares “when” you find out your opponent has you beat? If it costs you no less to see the river, but it takes longer to come to the conclusion that your opponent has you beat, how could that hurt you in the least?
cubbybri
QUOTE (Gallo @ Monday, March 12th, 2007, 5:47 PM) *
Ok, I did a move very similar to this one yesterday in an 18 man SNG. I was 2nd in chips. the CL raised it to either 2x or 3xBB. Anyway, I minimum reraised him with AQ, I was in the cutoff. With my minimum reraise I was basically telling him that I also had a very good hand and would be more than willing to put my chips in the pot IF I was forced too, I know AQ isn't AK or AA but at this stage when blinds were escalating AQ is pretty good. So like I said, I was telling the CL that I also had a big hand so be careful if he tries to pull a continuation bet without a made hand. Well, I missed everything, but so did he and we actually checked it down all the way. CL had AJoff.

So just from this little example, it could mean that villain does have a something like AQ or AJ. I definitely don't think he has a big pair or even AK. I think he would shove with hands like that before the flop. His minimum bet on the flop does mean he has an Ace, like I said maybe AJ or AQ and he just wants to get to the river as cheaply as possible also.

That's just my opinion of the situation.


Exactly, which is why I am saying, Ax or PP, unless he is sitting with a set(which is highly unlikely IMO), I see no reason to play this hand a push on the flop(especially if he does have a set, that's just silly). KK AJ JJ A4; doesn't matter what hand it is Ace rag lesser so but if OP has been loose I can see that as well.

So again we are WA/WB which is why we are best to call this min raise. If ahead, let him hang, if behind you can spike a redraw to get a better two pair or a draw to nut flush or dummy straight.

I think talking about specifically what hand villain holds is not very relevant on the flop after all the posts.

The main argument is are we calling or pushing because we know I think definitively that we are either WA/WB.

I still think call is best.
zimmer4141
Push.

If we have him beat and just call, we give him a free shot to suckout. Also, he won't bet the turn UI if he won't call our flop push.

If he has us beat, are we folding to a bet on the turn when we have invested 1/2 our stack? After calling the reraise pf (I actually like pushing pf here), is there any way we are folding when an A hits the board? I would hope not.
linkwood
QUOTE (zimmer4141 @ Monday, March 12th, 2007, 9:41 PM) *
Push.

If we have him beat and just call, we give him a free shot to suckout. Also, he won't bet the turn UI if he won't call our flop push.

If he has us beat, are we folding to a bet on the turn when we have invested 1/2 our stack? After calling the reraise pf (I actually like pushing pf here), is there any way we are folding when an A hits the board? I would hope not.


I we have him beat he is drawing to, likely, 3 outs. I'm willing to give him a 12% shot to draw out on me in order to get more chips. Yeah, he may have a flush draw, but that seems very unlikely because he would have to have a hand like KsQs, which seems unlikely. I'm not saying i fold on the turn either. If he bets on the turn we're committed and we will probably call unless our read tells us something is up. But pushing the flop lets the hands that we beat fold and the hands that beat us get all of our chips. Calling seems to make way more sense.
Jdr999
QUOTE (linkwood @ Tuesday, March 13th, 2007, 8:50 AM) *
I we have him beat he is drawing to, likely, 3 outs. I'm willing to give him a 12% shot to draw out on me in order to get more chips. Yeah, he may have a flush draw, but that seems very unlikely because he would have to have a hand like KsQs, which seems unlikely. I'm not saying i fold on the turn either. If he bets on the turn we're committed and we will probably call unless our read tells us something is up. But pushing the flop lets the hands that we beat fold and the hands that beat us get all of our chips. Calling seems to make way more sense.


This is wrong. When people say this, they forget to realize the amount of times people will call our pushes when we have the best hand. Is AQ, AJ, AT, going to fold this flop? Is a flush draw going to fold? The only hand that I put the other player by his pre-flop min. raise that has AQ beat is AK, or Aces. If they have pocket K's-5's they most likely will fold to a push, yet they will likely check the turn if we call.

Instead of pushing, I like to make a raise to $800.
ChrisRichey
Raising to 800 accomplishes nothing when the pot is already almost 3k. Since we are not deep enough to make a normal raise, and then follow that up with a meaningful bet on the turn, a push is the best play.
linkwood
QUOTE (Jdr999 @ Tuesday, March 13th, 2007, 11:22 AM) *
This is wrong. When people say this, they forget to realize the amount of times people will call our pushes when we have the best hand. Is AQ, AJ, AT, going to fold this flop? Is a flush draw going to fold? The only hand that I put the other player by his pre-flop min. raise that has AQ beat is AK, or Aces. If they have pocket K's-5's they most likely will fold to a push, yet they will likely check the turn if we call.

Instead of pushing, I like to make a raise to $800.


I don't think that raise makes sense either. Your only two options are calling or pushing. I still like calling better than pushing. I think you put hands like kings or queens in a tough spot because they don't know if you have the ace or the flush draw, so they might be inclined to put more money in.
SlackerInc
QUOTE (zimmer4141 @ Monday, March 12th, 2007, 10:41 PM) *
Push.

If we have him beat and just call, we give him a free shot to suckout. Also, he won't bet the turn UI if he won't call our flop push.

If he has us beat, are we folding to a bet on the turn when we have invested 1/2 our stack? After calling the reraise pf (I actually like pushing pf here), is there any way we are folding when an A hits the board? I would hope not.


QFT all around. Should have pushed preflop, should push now. The stacks just aren't deep enough to mess around.
Jdr999
QUOTE (linkwood @ Tuesday, March 13th, 2007, 11:47 AM) *
I don't think that raise makes sense either. Your only two options are calling or pushing. I still like calling better than pushing. I think you put hands like kings or queens in a tough spot because they don't know if you have the ace or the flush draw, so they might be inclined to put more money in.


My reasons for the small raise. They might think you are weak and call or re-raise all-in.
Also this raise looks odd given the pot size and action to this point.
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