I never play on the interweb thingie that all you kids are so fond of these days. We have a regular live monthly game, plus an occasional trip to AC, Foxwoods, and few times a year to Vegas. I like playing live. I like to get a read off looking and talking to the other players. I have very limited internet experience and have no idea how to read online players.

So my mortgage company recalculates my escrow account and finds I have a few extra bucks left over from last year and cuts me a refund check. I figure I'll throw $100 online and see what I can make of it. With my limited experience and small bankroll I figured small buy in SNG's would be the place to start. I could get my feet wet without putting too much at risk.

First hand first SNG: I don't have that fancy hand tracking software but I only played one friggin hand so I can remember it pretty well. I am dealt QsQc in late position. My normal strategy is to be VERY tight during the first few hands playing with people I never played with before. A few limpers before me. I wanted action but didn't want to go crazy so I made a pot size bet. The button calls. Most of the limpers fold except one calls.

The flop comes Qh 3c 7h. Sweet a set of queens but a possible flush draw. The player before me checks. No over cards, but a flush draw. I make a 2 X pot size bet. The button calls and the checker folds.

The turn comes 9c. Ok no help to the flush draw, no straight draw, I want to end this hand and avoid a suck out so I push. The button calls and I feel pretty good.

[mod edit - results]


Did I play this wrong somewhere? Is calling an all in with J3 suited typical of play at such small limits? Was there a read I should have picked up on but my lack of experience playing on the internet missed?

Before anyone else says it
1) yes, I should have folded pre flop
2) yes, I suck at poker
3) I had a bagel with butter for breakfast and have some leftover turkey meatloaf for lunch. I am going to get a nice roll from Panera to put it on.
4) Rigged
5) Lee Jones hates me.

You played it fine. Move on to the next SNG.

Ola,

I removed the results from your post.

In the future, if you could refrain from giving the results until the discussion on the hand has died down, that would be great.

I do have a few things to say:

- You got your money in awesome, there's no reason to wait for a better spot. Some SNG's, you just can't win.

- Your second post in this thread, the fold preflop, blah, blah, blah stuff, you won't find a lot of here in strat. The odd time, you'll see some friendly ribbing, but never any serious flames, so don't worry about stuff like that. Any flaming, problems, PM me.

- I'm friggen starving for ravioli for some reason.

Cheers.

- Zach

You obviously played it well in that you got all the money in with the nuts. If he called you with a draw and sucked out, well, that happens. In order to win Sit N Go's, you have to take a lot of risks. This play in particular is among the less risky that you'll have to take so you obviously have to make it. Be sure to have enough money in your bankroll so you don't mind losing a few on bad beats or bad cards. Don't play too high in limits since sit n go's are all about the big picture.

He turned J3h, made his flush, knocked me out.
I was a little shell shocked and shut my laptop down. My confidence was a little shaken and I was one bad call away from tilt.
It took me longer to download the software update and find a table then it did to play.

Is it standard play at those low limits to have someone call all in with J3 suited?

I am trying to find a limit I am comfortable with where the players play like they would at a normal table in a Vegas card room.
But then again, I have seen worse plays live so I guess it is comparable.

Thanks for the confirmation I made the correct play. Maybe tonight I'll try .05 / .10 cash game.

Lol, standard is an understatement...


You can expect in the beginnings of a tourney for almost all of the players at a sit n go to play hands like j 3.. You will get a few who won't but the majority will... JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE SUITED.. there is nothing you can do about that..

The bad thing for you was that this was your first online sit n go and you got horribly sucked out on.. that was a bad first impression.. Trust me, most of the time you will bank off players like this.

In essence, if you are a good player and actually grasp some of the concept of the game, you will thrive in these kind of situations..
Sure you will take some bad beats, but you will win the majority of these hands, unless you are just in a horrendous slump..

I play 5 dollar sng's at ap.. I win or finish in the money about 75 percent of the time... Because of all in calls like jack 3

I'm going to go against the grain here and disagree with the push on the turn. I just don't see the point in putting all your money in the pot so early in a SnG because you simply don't need to take that kind of risk. Players do all kinds of stupid things in low level SnG's so his play isn't all that shocking. There are a lot of players who are willing to put all their chips in the pot in the first few hands in the hopes of completing a draw, and you got bit by one. The middle stage is the time in the SnG to take these kinds of risks to double up, not the first hand.

Thanks, I was talking to my brother who is a regular in our home games and he gave me a different take. He is extremely tight and mostly folds for an orbit or two when playing with guys we don't know.

He suggested a min raise pre and post flop and then the push. Since the button already called my pot size pre flop and my 2x pot post flop my brother thought he probably felt pot commited. He knew I had something, but since there was no pair on the board I couldn't have a full house so he felt comfortable getting it all in with his flush draw.

I have a little more confidence back reading your posts and will be back at it tonight. Thanks. I don't ever remeber being knocked out on the first hand. I am going to be a little tighter on the first level and let some of the big ballers knock themselves around a little and let the table settle down before getting my money in.

Taking risks? He pushed all in on the turn with top set. He had the nuts. Can't eliminate risk much more than he did. I am puzzled by your whole reply here.

I don't agree at all. Knowing you have the best hand, you should make bets and make him pay to draw....which the OP did. So you propose he make small bets so the villain has the proper odds to make the call and suckout? The OP did everything right. He maid the guy pay to potentially miss. Those were bad calls by the villain.....but pretty much standard.

I'm as tight as tight can be in these things but if I had QQ and flopped a Q, I'm either doubling up or going broke.

Yeah.... no...

This is like super duper wrong, as others have mentioned above.

If you aren't taking this edge at ANY point in an sng, the wtf are you waiting for?

I never said anything about making small bets. There is a huge middle ground between small bets and pushing all in on the first hand. Pushing in this situation is a huge overbet, in my opinion. He could have given his opponent the wrong odds to call without pushing.

I'm waiting for the fish to die off, waiting until I have some information on my opponents, waiting until doubling up puts me in a better position. I personally have no interest in the possibility of getting knocked out on the first hand of a SnG.

OP made a 2x pot bet and he called. Obviously he's going to call another similar bet. Push is the only play left. You may as well make him pay if he is wrong. There is nothing wrong with getting all your chips in as an 80% favorite.

Hands like these are why you cannot cash in every single SNG you play. Somebody else will always suckout. But, if you make this same play everytime, you will double up 4 out of 5 times. I'll take those odds, as long as you can handle getting beat 1 out of 5. If I double up this early in a SNG, I will usually cash.

Lol even if you know you are at least an 85 percent favorite?

I agee with you that shouldn't take risks in the early part of the tourney..

put flopping top set on a board that only has a heart draw is not a risk..

The turn gave no help...

Mikey had to figure he was a huge favorite.....

Playing the small hands that can you into trouble early, THATS taking a risk

But when you have the nuts and only a damn heart can take you out, I'd take those odds any day

personally i agree with jmbreslin...

That's why if someone pushes all in in front of me preflop and i have aces, i usually fold.

Why go all in when there's a chance you could lose?

I hate taking chances, that's why, I don't even play poker.

sw

Fine, but that's very different than saying there is no risk in pushing in this situation. Yes, the odds are strongly in his favor, but there is still a 20% chance he'll lose. I'm not prepared to take that chance on the first hand of the game.

So... you'd rather take that chance when he is bubble boy or maybe even 10 hands later?
Would you fold then?

And your saying you would rather take the guys 20 percent chance than the 80 percent chance?

I'm not much of a mathematician but the last time I checked 80 percent has a better chance of winning than 20..

jmbreslin, I may be wrong (doubt it), but I can't imagine you being a long term winning player if you're too scared to get your money in as an 80%+ favorite.

I'd put my whole bankroll on the line as an 80% favorite.

jmbreslin, would you not try to get all the money in preflop with AA on the first hand?

This is no different.

people who get it all in preflop with aces are donks

aces can easily get cracked

duh thats why gambling sucks

I dont mean to be an *** but....

BBFIDTS!!!!

You went allin with the nuts.....you lost. This is no different than going allin with AA preflop...

I managed to restrain myself from saying this and instead chose to direct my sarcasm and astonishment towards the guy who said that pushing with the absolute nuts on the turn against a single opponent is a BAD play because it is unnecessarily risking your stack when it's early in the tourney and you don't need to double up. I don't even have the words to describe how flawed that thought process is, probably becuase there are more things (everything) wrong with it than there are things (none of them) that are right with it.

what does BBFIDTS stand for

You played it fine.

Also, Zach should have deleted the fact that villain called you with J3 of hearts and hit his flush on the river.

what does BBFIDTS stand for

That's awfully arbitrary. Who cares if it's the first hand? You can just sign up for the next one. Is this a pride thing or something? It's not like anyone's going to laugh at you for putting your money in with top set, or for raising PF with QQ.

Your whole perspective is frankly very puzzling (to me and obviously to many others). How can you play poker at all if you are so risk averse? Seems like you should be buying saving bonds instead.

So you're waiting until a better position to double up? Not gettin all your chips in the pot here is obv -Ev. I still don't really get how you're arguing to not get it all in as an 80% favourite. Because it's the first hand doesn't change anything. If anything because its a SNG it matters even less, u can just jump in the next one. I may be repeating points but I just don't really understand jmbreslin's way of thinking at all....

If you keep the bet small and he shoves for your last 800 or so do you fold?

Doing so early is fine, you can jump right into another one without much of a loss of time. Losing later you may get nothing for all the time invested.

Getting it all in as a huge fav is definitely +ev.

BBFIDTS = bad beat forum is down the street.

It wasn't a bad beat story although it sort of reads like one. It was my first real money online experience and honestly it shook my confidence a little. I do fairly well playing live, but I think that is because I depend pretty heavily on instinct and reading people. (Thanks Joe Navarro, your book rocks).

I know I would have made the same play live but I have no experience online. I just wanted to confirm my play was solid for online. I know there is a big difference between live and online and I am ignorant to the online game . Getting knocked out on the first hand of the first SNG for real money I ever played had me thinking a little. If it happened on level 5, I would have never even posted it. We al have much worse bad beat stories, but no one wants to hear them.

Actually, no, I would not push all in PF with AA on the first hand. In fact, I be more likely to push in the situation described in the original post than with AA PF.

Although I think some of the posts have been unnecessarily rude and sarcastic, some of you have made some good points in response to my post. The truth is that I just started playing recently but I've been reading a lot and scanning this and other forums. Sometimes I use the forums to test ideas by seeing how a community of more experienced players responds. Clearly the overwhelming consensus is that not pushing in this situation is wrong! It wasn't a pride thing but obviously I was letting my fear of losing all my chips on the first hand overshadow the statistics. I have to learn to trust the statistics.

I happen to be a very open minded person and I am always willing to admit when I'm wrong. What I respond well to is people using rational arguments to persuade me and pointing out why my approach is flawed. What I don't respond well to is people who reply with sarcastic and denigrating comments about how studid I am, or how bad I must be at poker, or how I should be buying savings bonds instead of playing poker. That doesn't help me learn.

I don't think anybody is trying to be rude or sarcastic, but just trying to give some obvious advice. Whenever you are an 80% favorite, put your chips in.....don't be afraid. Whether you have AA preflop or the hand we were discussing, if you have a chance to get all your money in when you know it will be called.....do it. Try to understand what your odds are and keep your play consistent so these odds will work in your favor in the long run.

I did delete it from the OP.

He just replied later on.

How did those post get 36 replies? loooool

It was at 35 until you chimed in. I make 37. It was more people bashing someone who says "don't risk your stack on the first hand of a sng when you're an 80% favorite to win" than it was people responding to the play in the OP.

You mean that he edited his original post and added the above info after you deleted it? Okay.

Oh, meh.

I saw that, but I didn't want to remove his question.

It's of little import though, as this is pretty cut and dry.

Also, I really don't want to get in the habit of heavily editing anbody's posts.

I'm just here to keep things moving smoothly and clean, etc.

I appreciate and applaud what you say here, except that I think you took my comments the wrong way. I wasn't trying to belittle you, only trying to point out that if you are so risk-averse that you don't want to take a 20% chance of losing all your chips when the other 80% is a double up, then poker is too risky for you--and I used the saving bonds thing as an example. I don't see why that can't be a helpful analogy to help you learn; but I apologise if I came across like a jerk who was trying to make fun of you. That was not my intent.

Is the OP for real?
No offence, but your post seems like that of a joke account

Thank you, much appreciated.

In defense of the OP, your spelling seems like that of a second grader.

Lol I luv how speling is always a target or an ensult agenst uther pepul....


Cereusly, speling duhsn't mezure entelligince..


Oberve!!! I like that word

I have no idea why people bet 2x the pot with top set on the flop, even if there is a potential draw or two out there. Why are people so scared of draws? Try and price them out, but why go nuts? You lose a lot of value in the long run by betting so much, since any potential action from marginal hands goes away.

And how did this thread get so long? BBFIDTS.

Hey, champ. ;-) We discussed this a while back, and I was taking the position you did--that as long as you bet more than half the pot, you're causing people to pay too much for their draws--and that over the long run, you should want people to stick around with draws that they don't quite have the right odds to chase. Copernicus countered by saying that this might be true in cash games, but that in tourneys, survival is key, and so you'd rather just take down the pot if it's already got a decent amount of money in it rather than lure them into an overpriced draw and possibly be eliminated.

Nothing to see here. (I was trying to edit my post and somehow replied instead.)

You flop top set, bet 2x the pot and get a caller? Jackpot imo. You're probably posting this because a donkey lit you up and are second guessing yourself. Believe me I think any solid player in the world would be going all the way with that hand, and play preflop just as you did. If anything, I think you bet a little too much.

low stakes sng's are filled with idiots who call with any ace, any suited cards, or any suited connectors... reckless players make stupid calls to build a stack early and don't care what their cards are, they just buy-in to the next sng

there was nothing wrong with your play, you just went up against an idiot and he got lucky

LOL.

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