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Full Version: Down To 3 Handed. Push/call/fold?
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Hoop Addict
130 player, $10 tourney (no HH, sorry!). Down to final 3, payouts are steep from here, $130-$260-$390.

Chip counts are roughly:
Me (button) : 48K
SB : 52K
BB : 95K

I find TT on button & make my standed raise of 2.5X BB (we were at 1000-2000 blinds). SB folds & BB re-pops me to 14K total.

He'd been reasonably tight & hadn't shown down any trash hands. He came to the FT as a big stack and picked away at the shorties. Hadn't come across him before then. Just seems reasonably solid.

What's your play here? I can't see myself folding TT 3 handed (is that a problem in itself?). Do you call & fold if he leads into a scary board (IE - overs on the flop)? Any raise would have to be a push, wouldn't it? Would it be stupid to raise to 30K, leaving ~18K behind & folding to a push (I'm assuming so).

ATM I'm putting him on 2 overs (AK - AJ) or any pair over 7's. Does that seem like an incorrect range?

So am I ahead or flipping enough here to make this push-worthy, or do I let it go & live to fight another day?
ramenandeggs
if he's been reasonably tight then you won't be ahead of his range very often, but I think assigning a range has to do with how often you've been pushing the table around, especially with what could easily look like a button-steal defense here. given stack sizes, push.
cubbybri
You're the short stack now. So he may be bullying you. With the range you assigned (which is probably a little too tight) I say you need to push. I think I'd put him on a larger range which would give more incentive for that push. A win puts you into chip lead. If by small chnace he drops it you give yourself a more comfortable 2nd chip position.

Keep your fingers crossed but I don't think I can pass up this hand at this point in the match.
throwemaway
QUOTE (ramenandeggs @ Monday, March 5th, 2007, 2:10 AM) *
if he's been reasonably tight then you won't be ahead of his range very often, but I think assigning a range has to do with how often you've been pushing the table around, especially with what could easily look like a button-steal defense here. given stack sizes, push.


Umm yeah we will...10s 3 handed and we raised from the button, we can put his range at something like 77+, AJ+..With the money we have invested and the fact that we are the shortstack, it would definitely be +ev to push

OP: don't think about anything else other than pushing or folding..If you were first to act, you could maybe make a case for a stop n go, but we don't have that option here..I'd shove and then lose the coinflip
pokerguy33
May be just a button steal with the 2.5XBB raise, might of thought that raise was weak, and wanted to test you. I push with this preflop, there is no calling, then folding the flop. I push, and with that you might get a fold by villian in this spot, and often than not, its going to be a coinflip. Next time don't raise just 2.5BB on the button with 10/10 3 handed, I make it around 4-5XBB.
throwemaway
QUOTE (pokerguy33 @ Monday, March 5th, 2007, 6:41 AM) *
May be just a button steal with the 2.5XBB raise, might of thought that raise was weak, and wanted to test you. I push with this preflop, there is no calling, then folding the flop. I push, and with that you might get a fold by villian in this spot, and often than not, its going to be a coinflip. Next time don't raise just 2.5BB on the button with 10/10 3 handed, I make it around 4-5XBB.

why?
RDog
Shovel.
Zach6668
QUOTE (throwemaway @ Monday, March 5th, 2007, 9:43 AM) *
why?

Ya, seriously...
pokerguy33
QUOTE (throwemaway @ Monday, March 5th, 2007, 6:43 AM) *
why?



Why raise it only 2.5XBB? I was saying raise it more around 4 or 5 times the BB, and I didn't post it, but no matter what the flop comes go ahead and push, But I guess pushing it all in preflop isn't a bad decision either, either way I was indicating your going to get your whole stack in with this hand.
Zach6668
QUOTE (pokerguy33 @ Monday, March 5th, 2007, 11:24 AM) *
Why raise it only 2.5XBB? I was saying raise it more around 4 or 5 times the BB, and I didn't post it, but no matter what the flop comes go ahead and push, But I guess pushing it all in preflop isn't a bad decision either, either way I was indicating your going to get your whole stack in with this hand.

You mean pushing all-in the first time around?

That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

Our M is 48k/(1k+2k+600) = 13.3 - Note I'm assuming antes of 200. If there are no antes, then we have an even higher M.

You didn't mean to push pf the first time, right?
pokerguy33
I don't know if what I said sounded confusing or not, I was in class while typing it early this morning. OP said that after villian re-pops his 2.5BB raise then its either push, or fold and find another hand to fight with. I think that after villian re-pops him, If he were to push, I wouldn't really flame him for it. And with the 2.5BB comment I was just saying my preference is a raise of 4 or 5 times the BB, thats my standard raise, and raising that much will define villians hand more than raising 2.5 I think, If OP raises 4 or 5 BB's here and villian re-pops him, what you would do, call, raise all-in or fold? What are you doing in this hand zach? I just didn't see you reply to the hand in itself. And a M of 13 isn't that great since a M around 10 is push or fold mode. Just wondering on your take and advice with this hand.
ChrisRichey
OP needs to raise whatever he's been raising. If 2.5x is his normal raise amount, then he it is correct for him to do so here. BTW, 4-5x is ridiculous short handed, and is going to cost you a lot when you have weak hands, and reduce your opportunity to profit when you have strong hands.
throwemaway
QUOTE (pokerguy33 @ Monday, March 5th, 2007, 1:01 PM) *
I don't know if what I said sounded confusing or not, I was in class while typing it early this morning. OP said that after villian re-pops his 2.5BB raise then its either push, or fold and find another hand to fight with. I think that after villian re-pops him, If he were to push, I wouldn't really flame him for it. And with the 2.5BB comment I was just saying my preference is a raise of 4 or 5 times the BB, thats my standard raise, and raising that much will define villians hand more than raising 2.5 I think, If OP raises 4 or 5 BB's here and villian re-pops him, what you would do, call, raise all-in or fold? What are you doing in this hand zach? I just didn't see you reply to the hand in itself. And a M of 13 isn't that great since a M around 10 is push or fold mode. Just wondering on your take and advice with this hand.


4-5x BB, like Chris said, is way too much, especially shorthanded..When raising pf, I want to risk the minimum to achieve the same results..By raising 5x, we are risking far too much of our stack, because we aren't always going to have a hand that we want to play til the end..

Also, an M of around 10 isn't push/fold mode..Typically, once you get below 7 or 6ish is when you are in push/fold
ramenandeggs
QUOTE (throwemaway @ Monday, March 5th, 2007, 6:37 AM) *
Umm yeah we will...10s 3 handed and we raised from the button, we can put his range at something like 77+, AJ+..With the money we have invested and the fact that we are the shortstack, it would definitely be +ev to push

OP: don't think about anything else other than pushing or folding..If you were first to act, you could maybe make a case for a stop n go, but we don't have that option here..I'd shove and then lose the coinflip


But with that kind of range, should we be expecting that BB calls more often than repopping it? He has plenty of play left in his stack and can still afford a flop to reassess. I think the missing factor here is how aggressive bb can be or how aggressive hero is expected to be. I'm giving a benefit of doubt to hero's assignment of bb as "tight."

I agree that after our initial bet, we're basically going to push this hand, but I'm hoping to have a slight lead over a flip and expect to see the bigger pair otherwise because of the raise oop against a small-ish stack. Why doesn't this fit? Is it just too freakishly narrow to happen 3 handed? Or is it because of hero's position that we can loosen the range up?
Hoop Addict
Wow - thanks all for your thoughts. FWIW, the site I was playing on, doesn't include antes, so my M = 16.

As mentioned above, my standard raise is 2.5BB after about the mid-point of any tournament, and I like to stick with that. Long term, I think it's +EV to raise 2.5BB, but I know there are different theories on that.

Basically, I insta-pushed with my 10's, thinking that he may ditch a couple of flipping hands to a push (KQ, AJ... MAYBE AQ), he may call with a couple of weaker ones thinking he was flipping (77-99) & if he has me dominated, well, tough bickies.

He had KK.

No mircale for me & gg for 3rd.

I wasn't too fussed about him having KK, there's not much you can do about that. I just wanted to know if, in this situation, pushing with 1010 is likely to be +EV and the correct play.

I appreciate all of the feedback smile.gif.
GABMAD
QUOTE (Hoop Addict @ Monday, March 5th, 2007, 1:13 AM) *
130 player, $10 tourney (no HH, sorry!). Down to final 3, payouts are steep from here, $130-$260-$390.

Chip counts are roughly:
Me (button) : 48K
SB : 52K
BB : 95K

I find TT on button & make my standed raise of 2.5X BB (we were at 1000-2000 blinds). SB folds & BB re-pops me to 14K total.

He'd been reasonably tight & hadn't shown down any trash hands. He came to the FT as a big stack and picked away at the shorties. Hadn't come across him before then. Just seems reasonably solid.

What's your play here? I can't see myself folding TT 3 handed (is that a problem in itself?). Do you call & fold if he leads into a scary board (IE - overs on the flop)? Any raise would have to be a push, wouldn't it? Would it be stupid to raise to 30K, leaving ~18K behind & folding to a push (I'm assuming so).

ATM I'm putting him on 2 overs (AK - AJ) or any pair over 7's. Does that seem like an incorrect range?

So am I ahead or flipping enough here to make this push-worthy, or do I let it go & live to fight another day?


Personally, I push.
It's not a problem that you can't fold 10's three handed most of the time. If you bump it up from the button, and SB makes a raise, and BB makes another raise, then I can see myself getting away from 1010. But in this situation, I can't see myself folding even if he's playing solid. You're short stacked and you gotta gamble.

Calling is weak. Push. And raising and leaving yourself room to fold.. icon_hand.gif no way. That's the dumbest thing i've heard. No No No! don't even have thoughts like that!

The range seems reasonable.
GABMAD
QUOTE (pokerguy33 @ Monday, March 5th, 2007, 4:24 PM) *
Why raise it only 2.5XBB? I was saying raise it more around 4 or 5 times the BB, and I didn't post it, but no matter what the flop comes go ahead and push, But I guess pushing it all in preflop isn't a bad decision either, either way I was indicating your going to get your whole stack in with this hand.


icon_hand.gif 2.5 x bb is a perfect raise.
tskillz187
This is a fairly standard shove. I'd call off an all in if he pushed over the top of my initial raise. Your hand is too strong and you have some FE along with just having more value than his reraising range.
SlackerInc
QUOTE (throwemaway @ Monday, March 5th, 2007, 4:11 PM) *
Also, an M of around 10 isn't push/fold mode..Typically, once you get below 7 or 6ish is when you are in push/fold


My understanding is that in the Orange Zone (between 5-10 M) push/fold is optional but "should be considered". A grey area, if you will. I always felt more comfortable getting in push/fold mode as soon as I was "allowed" to (though that is changing somewhat as I get more and more comfortable with postflop play), meaning I did start as soon as my M dropped to 10. In other words, I don't think you can say that for Ms between 5 and 10 that someone is wrong or right if they have their own personal preference as to when to start. If we were to break it down further beyond just M itself and parse it based on individual hands, it would stand to reason that tens would call for a push a little earlier than a lot of other hands. The reason I say this, beyond my personal sense of the hand, is that Harrington talks about the pairs just under the premium level being difficult to play after the flop when overcards appear, thus he suggests raising higher with them than with other hands (four to five times the big blind instead of around three times). So I don't at all hate either of pokerguy's suggestions for raising this hand PF: either 4-5xBB or a push. However, I do agree that if this is his "standard" raise for all types of hands, that's a mistake.

One more point that I haven't seen anyone make is that OP's effective M is actually only about 5. I know there are some who disagree with adjusting M for table size; but if we are going to go by HoH as our "handbook", OP is actually on the border of the Red Zone.

ETA: As played, I'd push. Could be a resteal, could be lots of things. And I can't really argue with the philosophy of not being able to get away from TT three-handed, though it's a close one (I know I could get away from eights, meaning nines must be the really borderline hand).
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