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FCP Poker Forum > Poker Strategy Forum > No Limit Texas Hold'em Cash Games
David_Nicoson
Live 2/5. 6-handed.
BB is hero with 1,200. Reputation is tight.
UTG is LAG with 550.
CO is aggressive preflop and c-bets. He tends to call down on other streets when he's the caller preflop. 1,400.
Button is relatively tight. 2,000

Preflop
UTG straddles to 10. UTG+1 folds. CO calls. Button calls. SB folds.
Hero calls with A icon_suit_diamond.gif K icon_suit_diamond.gif . UTG raises to 40. CO calls. Button calls. Hero raises to 240
UTG calls. Others fold.

Flop (560)
Q icon_suit_heart.gif 5 icon_suit_heart.gif 9 icon_suit_spade.gif

Hero ?


I'm having trouble with the betting sizing preflop. Depending on who calls, I can put myself into an awkward spot on the flop with different raise sizes. I'm pretty confident that AK is the best hand here, but I don't want to go completely nuts for the whole stack.

UTG's range is something like any ace, KJ, KQ, any pair, any suited connector or 1- or 2- gapper.
Edit: This is his raising range. His range after calling the 200 is tighter. Thanks Acid Knight.
simo_8ball
If I'm reading it right, villain has $310 left. Put it in.

I like how you played it preflop.
Acid_Knight
Well, I don't mind the move, although I think the raise was a bit too big preflop honestly, since you're trying to rep AA or KK usually.

You have 2 problems.

1. You got called
2. You missed the flop

Both of those problems seems to be erased by the fact that you raised half of his stack preflop and have an easy shovel here on the flop. If he had a hand like JJ, then he might fold here, but I'd expect to get called. What you're really hoping for is that he has AK and dumps it, which seems to be a likely holding for him. All in all, your problems are solved because he doesn't have enough chips to affect you anymore so just push and hope for the best.
Acid_Knight
QUOTE (David_Nicoson @ Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 10:06 AM) *
UTG's range is something like any ace, KJ, KQ, any pair, any suited connector or 1- or 2- gapper.


His range should not be this large IMO. I know that you've been playing with him, but calling half of your stack with anything but a fairly respectable hand is pretty retarded. I would not expect him to turn over a suited connector type hand here.
simo_8ball
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 6:25 PM) *
Well, I don't mind the move, although I think the raise was a bit too big preflop honestly


It's about a pot sized raise which I don't think is an overbet. We are out of position against 3 players, and there is a fair amount in the pot already. I think raising smaller asks for trouble.
David_Nicoson
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 1:27 PM) *
His range should not be this large IMO. I know that you've been playing with him, but calling half of your stack with anything but a fairly respectable hand is pretty retarded. I would not expect him to turn over a suited connector type hand here.

You're absolutely correct. I meant to say that was his raising range. It's tighter after the call, maybe KJ+, AT+, 88+.
Scott3705
Obviously before your decision, but why did you just call the straddle preflop? Extra money in the pot w/ the straddle, 2 late position limpers equals opening for a raise preflop in my book.

Once you get to the flop, I guess it's an automatic shovel to fold a pair and an AK, but what do you think villian is able to put you on at this point with the goofy preflop action. Depending on his hand reading ability and how you were playing certain hands at the time, you look like you're on an all out bluff. Would you think of LR preflop with AA in a straddled hand out of the big blind?
dms26
QUOTE (David_Nicoson @ Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 1:06 PM) *
Live 2/5. 6-handed.
BB is hero with 1,200. Reputation is tight.
UTG is LAG with 550.
CO is aggressive preflop and c-bets. He tends to call down on other streets when he's the caller preflop. 1,400.
Button is relatively tight. 2,000

Preflop
UTG straddles to 10. UTG+1 folds. CO calls. Button calls. SB folds.
Hero calls with A icon_suit_diamond.gif K icon_suit_diamond.gif . UTG raises to 40. CO calls. Button calls. Hero raises to 240
UTG calls. Others fold.

Flop (560)
Q icon_suit_heart.gif 5 icon_suit_heart.gif 9 icon_suit_spade.gif

Hero ?
I'm having trouble with the betting sizing preflop. Depending on who calls, I can put myself into an awkward spot on the flop with different raise sizes. I'm pretty confident that AK is the best hand here, but I don't want to go completely nuts for the whole stack.

UTG's range is something like any ace, KJ, KQ, any pair, any suited connector or 1- or 2- gapper.
Edit: This is his raising range. His range after he calling the 200 is tighter. Thanks Acid Knight.


Are you expecting UTG to raise here preflop? How often will he call a big re-raise with a weak hand? I think I'd rather raise from the beginning rather than try a limp re-raise for half his stack, especially if he will call the raise with any pair. Unless he is pretty weak/tight after the flop and fold fold most pairs if he misses his set.

As played I shove, you may have the best hand still and if you don't hopefully the A and K are live. You might also have some FE if he has 88 or worse.
mk
i think your hand is telegraphed pretty clearly as being something like AK/AQ/JJ/TT/99, and he can eliminate AA-QQ from your range.

it's worth taking a stab, but i don't know if you can move him off TT/JJ and he isn't folding any Q.
mvdgaag
QUOTE (mk @ Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 10:28 PM) *
i think your hand is telegraphed pretty clearly as being something like AK/AQ/JJ/TT/99, and he can eliminate AA-QQ from your range.

it's worth taking a stab, but i don't know if you can move him off TT/JJ and he isn't folding any Q.


Why eliminate AA-QQ? Do you think the opponent thinks he'd just have called with AA-QQ? I wouldn't have in this situation.
dms26
QUOTE (mvdgaag @ Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 4:53 PM) *
Why eliminate AA-QQ? Do you think the opponent thinks he'd just have called with AA-QQ? I wouldn't have in this situation.



Limping after a straddle and 2 limpers can't be a very good play if you have AA, and it's terrible with KK and QQ.
mvdgaag
QUOTE (dms26 @ Friday, March 2nd, 2007, 2:10 AM) *
Limping after a straddle and 2 limpers can't be a very good play if you have AA, and it's terrible with KK and QQ.


QUOTE
UTG straddles to 10. UTG+1 folds. CO calls. Button calls. SB folds.
Hero calls with A K . UTG raises to 40. CO calls. Button calls. Hero raises to 240
UTG calls. Others fold.


He did not limp, he raised and called a reraise.
David_Nicoson
QUOTE (Scott3705 @ Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 2:55 PM) *
Would you think of LR preflop with AA in a straddled hand out of the big blind?

Yes, I would make the same play with AA.
Acid_Knight
QUOTE (mvdgaag @ Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 5:29 PM) *
He did not limp, he raised and called a reraise.


Actually, he did limp. He was in the BB and there was a straddle on. He called the straddle then reraised after the player who straddled put in a raise. Since the straddle is technically a 3rd blind, simply calling it is considered limping.
David_Nicoson
I think my preflop raise is too small. I'm out of my comfort zone a little bit here. I'm pretty sure I would've overbet the pot in a 1/2 game automatically.

I pushed the flop. Villain called with K icon_suit_heart.gif Q icon_suit_spade.gif .

I can't defend his preflop play at all here, but I think I can force a bigger error. As it was, he took 2:1 on a 3:1 shot with position. Overall he's in a reverse implied odds situation against my range and the possible flops. But I'm clearly loosing more on this particular flop than he overpaid to see the flop.

It's interesting to me that people think I can't have aces here. If I raise pot straight away from the blinds with AA, then I'm playing a transparent big pair out of position against deep stacks with lots of implied odds and possible trickery. So I'd feel I'd need to overbet the pot significantly in that scenario to destroy the implied odds or just put in a small raise and play cautiously.
7s7c
I like the play a lot and it was unlucky this time. I made a similar play in a 2/5 at Borgata last weekend at a very loose table with QQ where I limped after 2 limpers knowing for certain that one of the drunks to my left would pop it to $40 or so as they had been every hand and when 2 more called the $40 I re-popped to $200...got moved in by 88 and held up. icon_dance.gif Just sayin it has lots of merit given certain circumstances as do most things in NL.
dms26
QUOTE (7s7c @ Friday, March 2nd, 2007, 10:50 AM) *
I like the play a lot and it was unlucky this time. I made a similar play in a 2/5 at Borgata last weekend at a very loose table with QQ where I limped after 2 limpers knowing for certain that one of the drunks to my left would pop it to $40 or so as they had been every hand and when 2 more called the $40 I re-popped to $200...got moved in by 88 and held up. icon_dance.gif Just sayin it has lots of merit given certain circumstances as do most things in NL.


What about when there is only 1 person left to act after you?
mtdesmoines
QUOTE (David_Nicoson @ Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 5:37 PM) *
Yes, I would make the same play with AA.


If I catch AA on a previously identified habitual straddle-raiser, I icon_suit_heart.gif icon_suit_heart.gif icon_suit_heart.gif limping AA to him.
mtdesmoines
QUOTE (dms26 @ Friday, March 2nd, 2007, 8:05 AM) *
What about when there is only 1 person left to act after you?


If it's the right aggro-tard ... then, absolutely.
Scott3705
QUOTE (mtdesmoines @ Friday, March 2nd, 2007, 12:03 PM) *
If it's the right aggro-tard ... then, absolutely.


I don't see anywhere where we identified him as habitually Loose and aggressive preflop on his own straddle. If that's the case, than the play has merit, but how often do you think this guy just takes a free flop? LRR here w/ AA would be super super super sneaky to the point where it borders and actually crosses the line into FPS. The action is just too weird for AA, which is why I would discount you having it here and why I think a lot of players would get curiuos here if they had something with marginal showdown potential. Maybe I missed something but Preflop is just too weird.
David_Nicoson
QUOTE (Scott3705 @ Friday, March 2nd, 2007, 6:42 PM) *
I don't see anywhere where we identified him as habitually Loose and aggressive preflop on his own straddle.


Don't you think the range I defined implies that?
Scott3705
QUOTE (David_Nicoson @ Friday, March 2nd, 2007, 5:33 PM) *
Don't you think the range I defined implies that?


That range isn't accounting for 50% of his possible holdings in this case, so no, I wouldn't believe that. If David N says the words, "He tends to raise PF his own straddle when limped to often," then we can say he's going to raise his straddle w/ atleast decent regularity.
David_Nicoson
QUOTE (Scott3705 @ Sunday, March 4th, 2007, 9:00 AM) *
That range isn't accounting for 50% of his possible holdings in this case, so no, I wouldn't believe that. If David N says the words, "He tends to raise PF his own straddle when limped to often," then we can say he's going to raise his straddle w/ atleast decent regularity.

I don't want to put to much room for interpretation in the wording.

The defined range is for specifically the situation we find ourselves in: villain straddles and the field limps. That range is 31% of the hands, if I'm using pokestove correctly.
Acid_Knight
QUOTE (David_Nicoson @ Friday, March 2nd, 2007, 7:36 AM) *
I think my preflop raise is too small. I'm out of my comfort zone a little bit here. I'm pretty sure I would've overbet the pot in a 1/2 game automatically.

I pushed the flop. Villain called with K icon_suit_heart.gif Q icon_suit_spade.gif .

I can't defend his preflop play at all here, but I think I can force a bigger error.


How big of an error do you need him to make? He had 3 outs where he can win the pot from you. You're obviously going to push any flop. If it's K high, he gets stacked. If it's Q high, you're getting stacked. If it's anything else, you're going to win the pot. I'd be happy that he's an idiot and just be patient with him.
7s7c
QUOTE (dms26 @ Friday, March 2nd, 2007, 8:05 AM) *
What about when there is only 1 person left to act after you?


Depends on how convinced I am that he'll pop and if there have been limpers in front of me to make the pot juicy for him.
David_Nicoson
Villain in this hand was 25th in the main event on day 3. He ended up going out about ~340 and cashing for $40k.

I'm sure that's more interesting to me than to you, but I think it does says something about how a guy with a lot of gamble can succeed in the tournament setting.
mtdesmoines
QUOTE (David_Nicoson @ Tuesday, July 17th, 2007, 5:59 AM) *
Villain in this hand was 25th in the main event on day 3. He ended up going out about ~340 and cashing for $40k.

I'm sure that's more interesting to me than to you, but I think it does says something about how a guy with a lot of gamble can succeed in the tournament setting.


That's why those of us who play a lot of cash games call them "tourney donks."
David_Nicoson
QUOTE (mtdesmoines @ Tuesday, July 17th, 2007, 10:11 AM) *
That's why those of us who play a lot of cash games call them "tourney donks."

He's a better player than this hand would imply. But yeah, he likes action.
Acid_Knight
QUOTE (David_Nicoson @ Tuesday, July 17th, 2007, 6:59 AM) *
Villain in this hand was 25th in the main event on day 3. He ended up going out about ~340 and cashing for $40k.

I'm sure that's more interesting to me than to you, but I think it does says something about how a guy with a lot of gamble can succeed in the tournament setting.

Kenna James plays 1/2 NL at South Point, and he doesn't play particularly well.
Ron Rose plays 5/10 NL and is terrible.

Tournaments are all about short term luck and high variance. That's how pepople like David Matthew can make final tables when it appears that they have almost no idea what they're doing.

They're called Donkaments for a reason.
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