Do people even know what liberalism_is_any more? Please read:

Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value.Liberalism has its roots in the Western Age of Enlightenment, but the term has taken on different meanings in different time periods; Today in America you compare it to new liberalism, while in the entire world in general, we refer to classical liberalism.
Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights. It seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power (especially of government and religion), the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of all citizens are protected. In modern society, liberals favor a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and an equal opportunity to succeed.

Many new liberals advocate a greater degree of government interference in the free market, often in the form of anti-discrimination laws, universal education, and progressive taxation. This philosophy frequently extends to a belief that the government should provide for a degree of general welfare, including benefits for the unemployed, housing for the homeless, and medical care for the sick. Such publicly-funded initiatives and interferences in the market are rejected by modern advocates of classical liberalism, which emphasizes free private enterprise, individual property rights and freedom of contract; classical liberals hold that economic inequality, as arising naturally from competition in the free market, does not justify the violation of private property rights.

Liberalism rejected many foundational assumptions which dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, and established religion. Fundamental human rights that all liberals support include the right to life, liberty, and property.

A broader use of the term liberalism is in the context of liberal democracy, in this sense of the word, it refers to a democracy in which the powers of government are limited and the rights of citizens are legally defined; this applies to nearly all Western democracies, and therefore is not solely associated with liberal parties.

So you can see that your country is founded, built and reached the peak that its at because of liberalism, yet, the word has become smeared ever since Reagen and the GOP control of congress in the nineties.

No comments?

i just burnt my tongue

The reason the title liberal now has a bad connontation is because the people who call themselves liberals are really socialist/communist.

So they ruined the word, not the conservatives.


Look up the word conservative and tell me you think that is the same as how it is used today in the media.

Is there no end to your complete and utter idiocy? I consider myself liberal. I am not a communist, nor a socialist. Daniel Negreanu, the guy whose web-site we are members of and whose blog we read, would consider himself to be a liberal. I suggest you go and post at the KKK web-site, or join the National Front. That would be much more to your tastes than mild-mannered, liberal-minded Daniel Negreanu.

Absolutely correct. I actually respect real liberals, Chris Hitchens, Nat Hentoff, LongLiveYorke, ect.

Yeah, come on man! I'm a liberal, and I'm only partially a socialist, and not that much of a communist at all!

This was for the most part my reply but I was planning on being a jerk and saying "College freshmen"

People that call themselves liberals talk in a way that induces eye rolling in a very large percentage of the population. It becomes synonymous in people's minds with naive teenagers.
Just like conservatives have their apparent image which doesn't apply to actual conservatism.

No end in sight.


But I can totaly see why you would think that since I accuse liberals of being socialist I am full of idiocy.

But you saying I am a racist because I am a conservative, that's just good common sense.




Good luck with 3rd grade, the questions get much harder.

Thanks for the honesty,

Now be honest, you believe the reason communism has failed everytime it's been tried is because they didn't do it right.

Not talking about you or Daniel, but left wing of democratic party, 95% or more of college professors. Can you really dispute that? Scroll up Yorke, I edited my previous post.

Nah, communism only works in a world with infinite resources and money. But I guess Mao and Stalin didn't really help its image all that much, did they?

I don't think Marx helped that image much.

Thanks for the shout out.

balloon man, I think that you are in need of a little sociological/political crash-course. You stated:

This is absurd. You speak as if socialism and communism are interchangeable; indistinguishable from one another. This is not the case. I won't bother looking up dictionaries because you are more than capable of doing this yourself. For brevity, communism is a system whereby the government or state owns all the land in the country and is in charge of distributing the land as it sees fit, as well as managing its people in accordance to it's own whims. The doctrine of socialism, on the other hand , states that the wealth of a nation should be fairly distributed, but it in no way goes as far as the absurdity that is communism. For you to assert that people who call themselves liberal are communists shows you to be dangerously misinformed and more than a little bit silly.




I did not say that you were a racist. I made a snap-statement based on my prejudices towards imbeciles such as yourself who make snap decisions about 'liberals' as if they were some commie scum that has to be eradicated. You're not racist. Homophobic?

"Mother of God," I thought "Here it comes."

I'm still waiting.

Uh, you posted your first one 5 minutes ago.

I meant that your reply signified the beginning of the end of this going anywhere. I can almost smell the 50th page already.



by making people give up their wealth through some sort of government system which is still the polar opposite of conservatism.

You're defending one system over the other when his statement said very clearly that "People that call themselves liberals tend to be Socialists/Communists" and like I said, a vast majority of the population roll their eyes to the kind of statements people that call themselves liberals make.
Like calling people that are pro-states-rights racist homophobes.

Don't worry, I have a lot more important things to be doing with my time than waxing lyrical over 50 pages with lost causes like balloon man. He disappeared rather sharpish did he not?


Regardless of what your distaste may be for socialism, it is far from the doctrine of communism. That is what I was asserting, nothing more.



Please explain what you mean by pro-states-rights.

Also, please forgive my tendency to paint Conservatives who don't understand the meaning of the term 'liberal' as racist homophobes. Clearly, there are a lot of racist homophobes in America who are Conservatives. There are even more who are not racist but who are homophobic. Living in Britain, my eyes tend to "roll" whenever I hear a Southern United States accent, such is the level of fundamentalist Christianity in that part of the world who treat gay people like second-class citizens. But the tendency in America to demonise those who would call themselves 'liberal' is rather shocking to British ears, as even the Conservatives here are a fairly liberal bunch.

I admit that I posted rather quickly and imparted some of my own prejudices in this post when they were unwarranted. However, as I have stated, to British ears, hearing someone call liberals 'communists' is pretty shocking and that is what I was reacting to.

The federal government should be involved in people's lives as little as possible leaving the governing to local branches. In other words, opposition to taxing people's labor and income in the form of income tax and beauocracy. This is the definition of conservatism. You do what you do and the government on a federal level doesn't get involved in your life.

You shouldn't build your opinions on subjects based on stereotypes. Its an ignorant assumption to make. And it leads people to judge incorrectly about yourself since you're portraying yourself in an ignorant way, which isn't fair to you.



Understandable. The terminology is different in the commonwealth. I know it is in Canada and I imagine its the same in Britain and Australia.
Liberalism is big government while Conservatism is small government, extreme liberalism is communism and extreme conservatism is fascism. Fascism and communism are more closely related than liberalism and conservatism while Republicans and Democrats are none of the above, just flimsy representations and last choice resorts for voting sake.

If you don't understand the concept of pro-state's rights from an economic standpoint you can't begin to understand why liberalism is given a bad rap in the US and why its (incorrectly) associated with Communism and Socialism because of the people that label themselves it.

This, using the modern version of words, seems to be closer to libertarianism than modern conservatism. Right, hblask?

Or paleo-conservatism. Libertarianism tends to regard the conservative doctrine on social issues more often. Either way they're related.

Edit: Related in the topic of government policy, that is.

So if you're not a liberal or a conservative, what other labels can one attribute to oneself? I don't think that, using the American terminology, I would be either a liberal or a conservative...

Why should you have to?

"Human being" tends to be the label i go with.

Believe what you believe, since nobody is ever going to agree exactly the same way why try to fit it into that mold?

Good point. However, it seems to me that there is a middle ground here which is being forgotten about. If we talk only of liberals and conservatives, where is the middle ground? It seems that if you vote Republican you're a 'Conservative', whereas if you vote Democrat, you're branded a 'Liberal'. This isn't right, as I'm pretty sure that I would vote Democrat, if I were an American, but my views are very far removed from the definitions of 'liberal' that have been bandied about over the last few pages. In Britain, we tend to have three main political classifications: left wing, right wing and 'the centre', with varying degrees of designation in-between. I, myself, would consider myself left-wing, leaning to the centre. I am pretty far removed from the American definition of 'liberal', yet if I lived there would I not be branded a 'liberal', and all the negative connotations that go along with such a label?

Interestingly, the word 'liberal' is actually something to aspire to be known as in Britain, whereas the term 'conservative', is seen as a rather old-fashioned and out-of-date label. Very few young people in Britain would want to be known as a 'conservative', and even most conservatives here would say that they are liberal. It's all very confusing!

Everyone must understand that there is a modern American definition for the terms Liberal and Conservative. They don't mean what they, typically, mean on a global level.

In these modern definitions... liberal refers to the people under the typical Democrat label... everything from poor tree-hugging hippies to rich intelligent elitists.... conservative refers to the people under the typical Republican label... from the redneck confederate-flag-wavers to the pompous family-value fundamentalist Christians....

A person who is to the extreme is considered "far-right" or "far-left" and most people in America who are middle class are considered more of the middle... there are basic republicans... democrats... moderates... and even independents.

The reason our country's leaders, though, always end up being a touch farther to the left or right then people tend to like is due to the fact that our primaries create issues for America. During the primaries, you get a MUCH less % of those moderates and independents that come out and vote for the more "middle-ground" candidates. The primaries are more for the rich intelligent elitists and the family-value Christian fundamentalists then it is for the average voter. This is why Kerry got a surprising win out of the primaries and why the Bush family has been so prevalent in the Republican Party.

There is also a new conservative movement coming to basis... the "moral/value-based" people that all sit there and throw stones at liberals every day of the week on talk radio. Quite hypocritical if you ask me...

Either way, I'm neither. I dislike liberals because I can't stand the thought of the federal government getting any MORE power. I hate the conservatives even more because I have to deal with every single type of those idiots in my home state of Indiana.

You can put me in with that party we call the Libertarian party :-) What people don't understand about Libertarians is that we're not all the same. We have many people that consider themselves liberal-libertarians, conservative-libertarians... and we have extremes from people who believe in anarchy to people who believe in a strong, but limited, federal government. Something all Libertarians pretty much agree about, though, is that our current government system is extremely flawed with WAY too much power... we are all, also, EXTREMELY worried about the state of our freedoms.

I am among the lines of the extremely limited federal government with power spread among the people and local societies. For domestic issues that need to be voted on nationally, I support having the people vote on them. Issues with education, taxes, etc. I extremely dislike that the reason our country is considered democratic is just because we get to vote on our leaders. That's very very sad to me. I am also extremely worried about a lot of issues that are just flatly misrepresented in this country. The war in drugs is hurting America. Especially the hypocritical laws allowing cigarettes and alcohol, but denying marijuana. Recycling is a pure waste of money and landfills have their place and purpose in this country. The only thing worth recycling is aluminum. I am utterly pissed off at the ridiculous, archaic and, supposedly, ethics-based laws regarding gambling, time of purchasing alcohol, etc. Everything should be legal on Sunday as it is every other day of the week. People should also be able to run their own poker rooms, blackjack tables, etc. NO ETHICS BASED LAWS ALLOWED! I am also for the government staying out of people's connections to the internet.... completely. etc etc etc etc etc etc I think you get the picture

Had to work, Own my own business and when it's got to get done, I drive the ship. So sorry if I ran off.


I really love England and will therefore not talk bad about your country. London is my favorite city in the world that's not in the USA.

You how ever are a bit dense. I suspect your bad teeth has now rotted your brain.

What is called a liberal in GB is not the same as in the US. To correct my understanding with your perspective shows that you sir are in serious need of a clue.

Come on, do your politicians/judges still really feel the need to wear wigs?

If you cannot refrain from using your pathetic excuse for logic to call me names than please feel free to press the PWR button on the front of your computer. It will help us save internet space that you are wasting.

And I really love your definitions of liberal and communist.

A socialist is someone who wants the weath of a nation fairly distributed.

But a communist is someone that wants the government to chose how the weath is distributed?

Yea, miles apart there, miles. ( or Kilometers for you people that don't understand miles)

Next time I'm in London you can pretend you're tough and call me a homophobe etc. If your teeth haven't rotted the rest of your brain.

Ouch!

The one thing I will defend him about is his correct view of the way Americans treat gay people. Everyone isn't homophobic, but I think I could detect a sense of sarcasm in that statement from him...

amirite?

I live in one of the most populated gay areas in America. They live in the nicest homes, have nice cars and good jobs.

I think the victim label is a bit of a stretch.

Resistant to their desires for social change, yes.

Anti-Gay, no.

I guess Mr DNA ran away since he didn't answer me quickly.



No wonder stupid people use bad logic. It makes you seem right more often. I might have to try this sometime.


Nah, I can't be that self-deluding. England is in a different time zone, therefore he is asleep.

Ah, I guess we differ on where we live. I live in an area where it's not 100% smart to admit your gay. Especially if you live in one of our state's small towns where everyone just happens to know everyone else. Not that you'll be treated, necessarily, with outright disdain (although that is more likely then might be thought), but you will be treated much differently then if you were to never say anything at all.

Plus, the fact that homosexuality isn't as widely accepted in America as it is in a country like England is quite true.... mainly among men and fundamentalist Christians.

Don't worry, I actually have read your other post where, amongst other things, you attack the state of my teeth and hope that I understand the notion of miles, even though we were using miles in this country before your people had a distinct accent. (By the way- I'm not English, I'm Scottish).

Concerning socialism being akin to communism, perhaps in America, where the term 'liberal' has been bastardised to mean something wholly distinct from its original meaning, they are both one and the same. In Britain, however, the party which is in power at the moment, Labour, is considered to be a socialist party. It is the left-wing alternative to the right-wing Conservatives. It is not communism; indeed, Britain once had a communist party, but as communism is even less popular than gallbladder stones, it didn't last long.

Also, what 'desires for social change' are you resistant to gay people enjoying? Sounds like jazzed up homophobia to me.

I see; your definition does not seem to be compatible with Balloon guy's statement: "...the people who call themselves liberal are really socialist/communist." Don't know about anyone else, but I don't know too many rich, elitist communists. By that rational, if you fall on the side of the political divide which isn't Republican, using Balloon guy's logic, you're no better than a damn commie traitor!

If you agree to the bolded part above, then why were you calling me an imbicile? That is exactly what I said, that the American liberal is part and parcel quasi-socialist/communist. If you chose to pretend that we were talking about England, than that is your fault.

I do always love though how the more enlightened 'liberal' side always starts the name calling. No one ever made a remote comment about homosexuas, but you have now made 3 attempts at labeling me a homophobe. Personally I think your boyfriend left you recently and your still angry.

Isn't Tony Blair in the labour party? I guess his involvement with the war was based on his desire to socialize the Iraqi's oil?

Why do all commie's have to be traitors?

Nice avoidance of the question. What're you, a lawyer? What social changes do homosexuals want to implement that you are resistant to?

4

Your inability or unwillingness to answer the question posed demonstrates your embarrassment at the thought of publicly announcing your backwards prejudices. You could have lied and said that you have no problem with any minority, and that you think everyone should be treated equally, instead of digging yourself into this rather large hole.

Yep, you are a joke account. Noone can be this dumb.

You got me good.

Is this you Chozzo?

If you don't want to be thought a bigot, you shouldn't accuse minorities of attempting to enforce social change that you are unhappy about, and then refuse to divulge exactly what proposed subversions of the current legislature it is that offends you. A simple explanation would have sufficed, instead of your current nonsensical replies which seem to imply your 'guilt'.

Edit: Come on Balloon guy, what're you writing, an essay?

well done,

I start by saying liberals are socialist, and now I muct defend myself from being a bigot and a homophobe.

well done.


And I don't write essays, I hire people to do that kind of thing for me.

I still think this is chrozzo

Except for Balloon guy, he's cool, even though I may disagree with everything he says. He argues his side pretty well and is funny.

FYP

Mr. DNA,

I'm trying to catch up in this thread. What statement did Balloon Guy initally make that you are in opposition with?

It's nothing too serious

You've got your American Conservative vs. your worldly Brit

I think it's going to be more about whoever screws up first.

Dang it, doesn't look good for me then.

and..



It was the last bit of the second quote that riled the me the most. Balloon guy, master of subtlety and all around fair-minded fellow, didn't exactly cover himself in glory when he decided that I must be gay and had just broken up with my boyfriend- how else could I be apparently trying to defend gay people? I'm not gay and I'm not trying to defend anyone. I just want to know what "desires for social change" homosexuals have that Balloon guy is so adverse to.

Dude, I thought you were a chick...my bad