I think Faber has this one. He's just soooo explosive and never quits. Plus he's pretty well rounded. Second round TKO via GnP.

Holy shit did that guy break his neck in your sig? Thats gotta be illegal? I am going with Pulver.

Yeah I've been meaning to ask about that sig too - that's sick - where did you find it or who are those guys?

I like Pulver, just been a fan after I read his book.

nvm, I found that knockout. Sure doesn't look like they ruled it illegal - right after he does it the screen shows "TKO"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXNtY0CtGhU

oh my god.
I just got done watching the event

..I'll read the posts soon, just my initial reaction - The card lived up to the hype.
Great event for the viewers with so many fights being shown.

Can't wait to read all the opinions here.

such as.. Did Wanderlei put an oriental nerve choke on Jardine! Holy ****.


ps. 22% ROI. 4/5. Soku, Penn, Carwin, Lyoto. (Jardine) It's almost too easy to make money on UFC betting.

Pretty savage. It was a Shooto match from a few weeks ago. If there's ever a good time to give up a submission attempt, that would be when.

I'm jealous PrtySux

I like watching Lyoto fight. His feigning and dbl kicks are entertaining and seeing if anyone can figure out the puzzle will keep my interest.

I sorta like Urijah at -270. I love him at even

In Matt Hamill's last fight Joe Rogan used the term Rape Choke to describe that choke, it caused a little bit of controversy with the politically correct people. I thought it was funny he didn't mention it this time, I bet he thought about it though.

So I got back from Vegas a couple of days ago. I decided to watch the fights again tonight on PPV.

Going to UFC 84 was amazing. A friend of mine hooked me up with free tickets on the floor. I think they were 3rd or 4th row. The intersting thing about the seats was that there really wasn't anyone in front of us. The way the seating was designed, it was almost like we had 1st row seats.

Mark Delagrotte who is Kenny Florian's Muay Thai coach was sitting in front of us. Kenny was there as well. One of the cool things about that was that I would ask Mark from time to time who was winning a fight, just to make sure. He was an incredibly nice guy. And Kenny Florian seemed VERY cool as well. Totally down to earth. He and Roger Huerta talked for awhile and joked around. I mention this because there is no bad blood between them. So if the UFC tries to hype it that way in the future, it's just not true.

I lost one fight, the Mendes one. Getting 5-1 was a great price, and it was a small bet.

I want to thank everyone here for contributing. Collectively it seems like we do a pretty good job of figuring things out. Jayboogie especially. His knowledge about fights, and fighters is top notch, and that has come in handy. Even if I disagree with someone, getting input is always nice. That way I can view things from all angles.

Chuck was one of the friendliest guys out there. I didn't meet him, but I saw him several times as I came and went. He literally stopped for everyone that asked to take pictures. Total class act. Tito Ortiz on the other hand was kind of a jerk about that. Perhaps it was a bad time, but lots of people wanted to get a picture with him and he just walked the other way.

Growing up in LA I have met a ridiculous amount of celebrities. I guess the same could be true for poker. Although the people that I hang out with, I don't consider celebrities. They just happen to be successful poker players. MMA fighters have a special appeal. They are doing something that I honestly could never do. I don't have the heart, skills, talent, etc to do what they do. So I do get excited when I see those guys. I've never asked for an autograph or gotten a picture. But I am certainly in awe of a lot of fighters.

All in all the card was amazing. No sense in me going over fights that you guys have already watched. One thing that I will point out is a thought that I have had for awhile now. Regardless of what the odds are, you have to ask yourself who you truly believe is going to win a fight. Some people make picks purely based on math. I think that is incorrect. Have a clear vision of who you see winning the fight and why. The numbers will work themselves out. A lot of people have said "well at this price, how could I refuse, etc". Obviously if I am getting 5-1, I can make a tiny play for the hell of it. But in general I never do that. My picks are pretty well thought out. Hope that makes sense.

Oh, and always wait until the last minute if you are going to bet, you will get the best price. Sigh.

Sounds like you guys had an awesome time. I finished ahead with bets but just barely. Really disappointed I made such a bad play on Tito. Thank God for Rich Clementi. It'll be interesting to see where he goes.

Anyway, Herring vs. Lesnar now, I love Herring as a fighter but can he avoid the lay n pray of Lesnar? Seems like Brock should be able to take him down and lay, right?

Sounds like your saying the line moves to give the favorite a better price at the end.
I've never made any effort to see if that's true.

Betting with Math as a consideration, simply means UnderDog chances of winning exceed the odds he's getting. It doesn't mean we expect him to win.
Sounds like you are saying the only good bets are on the favorites.

fwiw, it does seem that betting the favorite works well. But again, I don't have any data to back it up, just my own short history.
Anyone see any data that supports a 100% favorites strategy?

The upside of this sport is that even the underdog has a "puncher's chance". There have been some huge upsets in MMA over the past few years that have paid ridiculously high (Kongo&Gonzaga/CroCop, Serra/GSP, Lauzon/Pulver, Sokodjou/Nogueria).

I think there is always a ton of value betting on the underdogs, especially on the unknowns. I wouldn't bet the house on these lines, but there is a lot more to be made on MMA underdogs than boxing underdogs.

In this instance the line moved on most fights to give the favorite a better price at the end.

I believe there is a guy from 2+2 who almost always picks favorites and has data to back it up.

If you look at the lines on the card I picked 3 dogs, and 2 of them won. I wasn't able to bet the Clementi fight and one or two others.

My point has nothing to do with favorite or underdog. I simply look at a fight and try and figure out who I like to win. They haven't gotten the odds right for MMA yet. Styles make fights, and that is why Vegas has such a hard time with this sport. So imo it is best to figure out who you think is going to win first, then look at the odds later....

JC and I often joke that if a guy on the UFC page doesn't have a picture, we should bet on him.

I don't think that Vegas has a hard time with this sport. I don't think Vegas would even get involved if they couldn't figure it out. I think it is the bettors that haven't figured it out. Vegas sets lines to have an equal amount of money placed on each fighter. I have found that lines move <24 hours after being released and <2 hours from fight time. Those are mostly the intelligent large wager bets creating this movement. If the intelligent bettors see a juicy opening line they will jump on it and most likely not bet it again until fight time as there will not be significant, if any, movement.

How bad is it when the UFC doesn't have pictures up even on event day?

I agree with you about betting who you think will win and not worrying about being layed good odds on an underdog. That is how I used to bet MMA and have gone away from that the past few cards more than usual. Every one of them has still been profitable, but I just can't stand betting against my gut feeling anymore. Thankfully Palhares saved me this card. I was 2/7 (small on Sherk, medium on Jardine, medium on Gouveia, mini on Tito that I placed on 3/25 :-), mini on Mendes, super huge on Palharas, and large on Carwin).


Whoever said a few posts up that Machida vs Chuck would make an exciting fight......seriously? That could be a fight that puts everyone to sleep. Who is going to step forward in that one? If they had a line on which fighter would cause the UFC to make the Octagon smaller Machida would be lapping the pack. Not only is his style not exactly fun to watch, but it makes it seem like he doesn't even want to fight. I honestly thought Tito should start chasing Machida around a la Quarry/Starnes. As it was, it seemed to be the same thing just in slow motion.

Thiago had me worried for a second. I made a small play against him, but really didn't want to see him lose. He needs to take a big step up for his next fight. I don't think he took this guy very seriously and still made him look silly after nearly getting KTFO.

I am no UFC expert here, but as someone who watches his fair share of the sport, I couldn't disagree more with the above statement. There's a HUGE difference between what Starnes did and what Machida regularly does. Tito's face wasn't all beat up at the end of the fight by getting wind burn from chasing him around.

Seriously? No.....

Machida landed a bunch of punches and delivered one of the sickest knees to the body ever, some sick looking switch kicks or whatever, his take down D was perfect, he took tito down and got him in the crucifix which probably ends the fight if the round doesn't end, he'd stick and move like a boxer would and he hardly got hit, AND he escaped the triangle and armbar. He just seems boring because we're used to watching dudes like Wandy who just stand there and bang. Wandy will also have brain damage in his 40's. I think Rogan said it best something like "It's not running though, it's intelligence, he's attacking but he's not standing there and letting you hit him, it's a very smart thing"


I don't see how people can't appreciate how sick intelligent Machida is, and how good his style is for this sport. I appreciate a guy like Wandy or Forrest too but comparing Machida to Starnes is just plain wrong. How can anyone hate him after his "I'm going to die, but I won't tap" quote?

I think the main difference here is the obvious one... Starnes lost terribly, Machida embarrassed Tito. Machida's TD defense was sick. He threw those jumping double kicks or whatever to perfection. But like I said... more importantly, Machida used his style to win. I mean, Chuck has always been a counter fighter as well and just because he's landed KO's makes him the best and Machida the worst? If there were a mere five extra seconds on the clock in round 1, he ground and pounds Tito into a first round KO and is the best fighter ever. Now people want to dog him for being boring, but much to the contrary of what people have said, I look forward to paying to watch him fight again.

Everyone knows that I was a huge supporter of Machida going into this fight.

After the second round, I asked Mark Delagrotte if Machida was ahead in the fight. I too was worried about the whole Starnes "thing". Mark, said yes he's ahead and it's not even close.

Machida is the kind of guy who really needs someone to take it to him. He is a counter fighter. That is the heart of karate. He is a very intelligent fighter. The only thing that scared me about him was his conditioning. He seemed really tired. Perhaps he overtrained.

I predict that Machida and Vanderlei will fight next. That will make for a very exciting fight.

found the brag in this post.

Also, post fight interviews Machida said he felt the pressure and thinks that is why he got tired.

No, apparently he was very ill and needed to be held up after the fight.

Is there a link to that?

I can't disagree with anything you said about the fight as I saw the same one. However, even Tito was clearly frustrated that Machida did not want to engage. I have said countless times on here what an intelligent fighter Machida is. He has proven it time and time again.

Obviously, Machida's style is an efficient and effective one. Let's say all MMA guys wise up and start to take his approach. How incredibly boring would those matches be?

No one has commented on my Chuck/Machida fight. Can anyone argue that this would be an exciting fight?

I read that on Sherdog but it was just a random post that was soon deleted so I'm not sure how much there is behind it.


Never will fighters always take the same approach, that's what makes it so interesting, seeing the guys engage. Getting to see how Machida's style engages with guys like Tito, Wandy, or Chuck makes it ever more interesting.

I would rather see Wandy fight either Chuck or Machida than see them fight each other.

Wow, sherdoggers are ****ing stupid. Have you guys noticed that too?

[rant]

Frequent Sherdog statements:

1. That was a premature stoppage.

Sorry, sherk was out. When Rogan interviewed him and asked if he thought it was a premature stoppage he said, "Actually, I didn't even hear the bell ring." You know why? Because he was out and limp on the floor.

2. BJ is not the ref so he shouldn't insist the fight was over.

He is a fighter, but do you think he wants to have to fight another two rounds after just knocking the guy the **** out BEFORE the bell was rung?
[/rant]

I find MMA diuscussions bring out a lot of idiots.
Well, generally all forums.
This forum is actually one of the best, hence, I stick around

It'd turn into boxing...lol...except it'd still be better. But that will never happen because achieving a style like Machida's is so hard to do. I mean, how many fighters grow up doing shotokan? Let alone know how to apply it in MMA. I could see machida becoming some sort of MMA Mayweather though but that's not likely. I'd like to see how machida would do with someone like Rampage though.

Machida v chuck will likely be boring but Machida vs Wandy could be interesting. Someone just told me he thinks Wandy is getting a title shot next and Machida will likely get Thiago, I'm excited to see what the plans are after Rampage vs Forrest.




thats because most of us bet the fights, we cant afford to be retarded for the most part

I wouldn't say that Machida didn't want to engage, he simply wanted to do it on his terms. With Machida's style, he needs to strike from a distance, because he keeps his hands low and his stance is open. He would get nailed fighting on the inside with his fighting stance.

I don't think you need to worry about MMA guys adopting this style, because he's one of the only fighters out there that use karate effectively. It would take years of unlearning everything you've ever been taught to fight this way.

I think it would be entertaining, but I enjoy watching all of Machida's fights. The match-up with Liddell would be interesting to me, because I'd be interested in seeing what each of their gameplans would be. I think Chuck would have to alter his gameplan and attack, because I just think it's unlikely for Machida to alter his. He also has the ability to land strikes from a distance and if he and Chuck were exchanging at a distance, Machida would be the one landing, because he gets in and out much quicker and gauges distance better than anyone I've ever seen.

I also think you will see Machida countering quite a bit when he's fighting against someone willing to let their hands go. This was something Tito was unwilling to do, because he was worried about getting countered.

I kind of want to clarify my statement about picking a winner regardless of odds.

Sometimes I actually see the underdog as a favorite, and I get truly excited that others don't see it that way. From purely a mathematical standpoint, the odds are indicating that if two people fought a number of times so and so is expected to win x number of times.

I think it's more complicated than that.

I picked Vanderei to win. I got him at -180. He ended up being -160, obviously I wish that I would have got him at that price. But after thinking about it, I knew that Vanderlei wanted to win a lot more than Jardine did. In fact he had to win. He also has a great style against someone like Jardine. And after watching the countdown show, I could tell that Keith's head was not in the right place. So regardless of what the odds were, I had already decided to get behind Vanderlei. It was just a question of for how much.

Totally different example.

Rich Clementi was a dog in his fight against Melvin Guillard. I felt like Rich was actually a favorite to win, and was more than happy to get behind him.

If you take time to look at two fighters, you should have a pretty good idea of what the outcome will be.

When in doubt, bet on the guy with no picture.

Was that Jardine's "shot"? What do you figure they can do with him now...

He get the loser of Rampage/Forrest maybe?

Another Alexander fight? I mean, he has two big wins over Forrest and Chuck, but has htose two scary loses. See if he can get back on the right track or not.

lol - guess nobody heard of this yet. Gotta find the video.

Here is the blog entry I read it in:

A shitty fight
May 26, 2008 – 12:46 pm by fightlinker

No, I’m not talking about the Machida fight … that will come a bit later. A few days ago I bit the bullet and set up my RSS reader to capture all mainstream news outlet’s coverage of MMA. I didn’t want to do this, mainly because I don’t give a shit about 99% of the fluff pieces being written by the St Louis Journal Standard or the Alexandria Town Talk on stupid local fighters. But every so often, you find an article SO ****ING AWESOME, it makes the extra 20 minutes of digging and reading worthwhile. Behond, the fruits of my prospecting:

In Saturday’s match against Corey Wethey, Mitchell struck his opponent so hard that Wethey lost control of his bowels. The incident required a 10-minute intermission while officials scrubbed down the ring. Mitchell went on to win the fight by Wethey’s disqualification.

The fight — the seventh of the night - began like any other. Mitchell and Wethey left their corners, tapped gloves and traded punches. After landing a knee to Wethey’s body, Mitchell said he began to smell something foul.

As the fight prolonged, Mitchell said the smell continued to worsen. Eventually, he removed his mouth piece and expressed his concerns to the ring official.

“He shit himself,” Mitchell said repeatedly.

It was at that point Wethey gained the advantage and locked Mitchell’s head between his thighs.

-----------------

"It was a real shitty fight."

"he really beat the shit out of him"

"This fight stinks"

"Talk about a crappy day"

UFC 84 Paydays

* B.J. Penn ($250,000) def. Sean Sherk ($35,000)
* Wanderlei Silva ($150,000) def. Keith Jardine ($10,000)
* Goran Reljic ($6,000) def. Wilson Gouveia ($18,000)
* Lyoto Machida ($100,000) def. Tito Ortiz ($210,000)
* Thiago Silva ($50,000) def. Antonio Mendes ($4,000)
* Rousimar Palhares ($10,000) def. Ivan Salaverry ($20,000)
* Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou ($80,000) def. Kazuhiro Nakamura ($20,00O)
* Rich Clementi ($40,000) def. Terry Etim ($10,000)
* Yoshiyuki Yoshida ($12,000) def. Jon Koppenhaver ($8,000)
* Dong Hyun Kim ($40,000) def. Jason Tan ($3000)
* Shane Carwin ($12,000) def. Christian Wellisch ($10,000)

Once again, Keith Jardine is the big loser, getting sent to the hospital for 10k. One of the reporters at the press conference asked Dana if he felt this was ‘fair’ and the temperature in the room dropped about 20 degrees in the span of two seconds. After a long pause, Dana White said something along the lines of “He makes more than that, and I’m not telling you how much. I’ll never tell.”

I’ve never doubted that Jardine makes more money than 10k per fight … I’m sure the UFC has a few different ways to pay their guys that don’t end up the commission sheets. But for God’s sake, can Dana not switch up some of these guys’ contracts so they don’t look so pathetically underpaid? I mean shit … you might as well release documents saying Jardine has a tiny little baby **** too. Sure, Dana might say “Oh, Jardine has a massive dong - no, I’m not talking to you Dong, I’m talking about Jardine’s dong”. But does he really expect journalists to take his word for it???

And just to add a little fuel to the Machida fire - another blog post about that fight. I am sorry to say I agree with the people that didn't like the fight - although I do not doubt Machida's talent - it was mostly boring to watch for me. I like agressive striking or good jiu jitsu - not that.

------

We drew tons of flack from our comments on Lyoto Machida during the post-event radio show, and I just wanted to clarify them a bit now that I’m no longer drunk. A lot of people are falling in line with the hype machine, saying that Machida is “elusive” and “confounding” like that’s something we should give him props for. No one wants to be called an “ignorant fan”, so rather than call a spade a spade they’re nodding and agreeing that Machida is simply amazing. And while he might be good at what he does, he still ****ing sucks. And here’s why:

Simply put, actively keeping a fight from happening and then winning on two or three exchanges is bullshit. Let’s look at this in terms of another sport: Imagine there was a basketball team out there that decided to play the game in a completely different way. They set up a system where they completely stifle all offense, and win the game 7-3. While you can be impressed at the team’s amazing defense and their ability to completely neutralize all play, is that really something that should be applauded?

The sport of MMA has been evolving for a while now. Back in the day, Brazilian jiu jitsu guys would come in and tool everyone until people picked up enough to counter it. Then came the wrestlers, who used their takedowns and control to win matches. Thank god that period of time, also known as ‘the era of lay n pray’, is mostly over. It sickened me to see those ****s win decision matches over and over. Now we’ve got Machida, who’s style is all about not engaging and winning on the rare exchanges he allows.

The good news is that sooner or later, someone is going to figure out Machida’s style and he’s going to get smashed, just like the one dimensional BJJ guys and wrestlers of yore. The bad news is I don’t know if it’s going to be this year or next year or a few years from now. The era of lay and pray lasted a pretty long ****ing time, and quite a few fighters jumped on that bandwagon before the wheels came off. So is this what we have to look forward to in MMA? More guys like Machida dragging out fights with their ‘elusive’ skills? I might have to put up with it, but I’m not going to like it. And I’m certainly not going to give props to one of the guys at the forefront of the trend.

Good point. Giving Jardine this low pay day and making it up in other bonuses just feuls the under paid talks brought up by Tito and Randy. It seems like giving him a new contract now would take some weight off Dana's back.

Ok last post - just been catching up on all my MMA stuff and had lots to share

Melvin Manhoef - this man is a killer and needs to get to the UFC. Great highlight reel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp-lA3gfHKI

yeah, but sometimes the energy level is so high in those arenas, the fighters and ref can't hear anything, Matt Hamil style. (sorry, couldnt' resist)

during that Mir/Lesnar fight, I believe Mazagatti was quoted as saying that he couldn't hear himself even though he was shouting at the top of his lungs. So, for an engaged fighter fighting for his ring life, I'm not surprised to hear him say that he didn't hear the bell.


As far as Machida, like I said before, the guy is a technical machine with a good gameplan going into a fight. Take as little punishment as possible, pick up points, pick spots to be aggressive, and get out with a win. I see nothing wrong with that, but with the culture of MMA, just don't expect to headline a PPV and get anything more than absolute hardcore fans to buy it. I don't think he would do ANY kind of numbers. And that's what this sport is all about, whether anyone wants to believe it or not. It's a spectable. No matter how technical this sport becomes, half the people still tune in to see someone get Jardine'd, hence the fascination with Kimbo. Everyone dogs him but I'll bet everyone's tivo is set for Saturday night. I know mine is. But it's also set for Sunday night as well because I'm enamored with the things that Faber does. Nothing wrong with enjoying all aspects of the sport. It's all about what you'll pay for. Get Kimbo some ring time, then get him a credible opponent and he'll do a huge number of buys (if he goes in undefeated). Half the people will buy to watch him kill someone and half will buy it to see him get choked. Either way, Gary Shaw wins. Hopefully, it'll come to that. If not, I don't know what will happen with some of those guys. I think Dana White has too much pride and ego to sign some of those guys if EliteXC folds, even though the general public wants to see them.

One last thing about EliteXC. Even though they don't have the high quality stable, their last big card was exciting as hell. 4 out of 5 fights ended violently. The only one that sucked was the one with the former UFC champ, Ricco Rodriguez. He gassed in 4 minutes. People say he'd kill Kimbo but it looked like he had no striking game at all. I don't know, I'm just rambling at this point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA52MSjRf6Y...read.php?t=4034
Interesting, but trainers do this a lot to make their fighters look better to get better fights, right?


Jackson to get his revenge with Wandy?

Wow that Amir/Matt fight tonight on TUF was a war. I think that Amir has a bright future if he wins this or not. Likes the flying knees a little to much right now though.

Any thoughts on Sunday's Pulver vs. Faber?

Apparently it's on Versus in the U.S. Anyone know if it's available in Canada?

Faber looks unbeatable when I've seen him fight, but Pulver has tons of experience against much better fighers. Classic matchup of a wily veteran vs. a great young fighter.

I'll take youth in this one.

Did Matt look like he was pretty gassed once he was taken down early in the second round?

I didn't understand why Matt let off after a barrage of kicks and punches to start the 2nd. He seamed to dart away and then Amir pounced.

*********************

the complaining about fighter pay is getting old. It's a business and two people sign contracts. IMO, Free Market works. Dana and the Frit brothers are took the risk and will take the biggest fall if UFC loses ground or fails.

**********************

Steve, I understand your thinking. Your saying fighting is not the same as rolling a die, where you might bet getting 8:1 that a 6 will show. It's more like deciding on the river if, even though you are getting 13:1 odds, you fold because you know that TP is beat. I think for me, I'm less certain and will let the payouts play into whether I'll make the bet. Some favorites just don't pay enough relative to the chance I give them; but otoh, some fighters who are underdogs in my mind, are paying much better than they should, again imo. I think it comes down to you have to be more convinced that the guy you bet on will win.

*************************

It will be on TSN alternate, if you get that channel. If not, it will be shown on TSN on Tuesday.

I was looking at the lines on Pinnacle and 2 jumped out at me.

Matt Hughes -206
Thiago Alves +186

I think Alves is a bad matchup for Hughes because his Jiu Jitsu is better and his standing is better. What Hughes has is wrestling and size. If Alves can keep Hughes out of any dominating positions on the ground, I think Alves takes this one.

Marcus Davis +106
Mike Swick -116

I like Davis in this one. He has really great standup and Swick looked terrible at 170. I think Davis will get inside and outstrike Swick.

I'm witcha

time to bet

I like Alves too. He is tenacious and think he will give Hughes all he can handle. Also he will be more motivated than Hughes. Alves, if he wins this has got to be up there for a title shot. While Hughes if he wins this is still an long way from GSP/Hughes 4. Hughes has already said win or lose his next(andd I predict his final) match will be with Serra. Of course it is very hard to judge where Hughes is at after being dominated by the best in the game, it wasnt that long ago he looked unbeatable. The price is right for Alves though.

Someone please hook me up with a link to watch 85 online for free. I have paid for 7 of the last 8 and deserve a free one with such a weak card.

My Picks - You have 10 picks American Odds Fractional Odds Decimal Odds
Place Your Bets

Moneyline Kevin "Kimbo Slice" Ferguson -600 Mixed Martial Arts .......8u
Moneyline Robbie Lawler -245 Mixed Martial Arts .......6u
Moneyline Jorge Rivera +200 Mixed Martial Arts .......3u
Moneyline Marcus Davis -115 Mixed Martial Arts .......5u
Moneyline Brandon Vera -170 Mixed Martial Arts .......5u
Moneyline Nate Marquardt -165 Mixed Martial Arts .......6u
Moneyline Thiago Alves +160 Mixed Martial Arts .......5u
Moneyline Chris Lytle +250 Mixed Martial Arts .......3u
Moneyline Forrest Griffin +200 Mixed Martial Arts .......4u
Moneyline Fedor Emelianenko -450 .......7u

as of now

I see I already had 4u on Vera from earlier at -115. cool

anyone know whats going on with the Vera/Werdum line? A couple of weeks ago the fight was pick'em, with the line inching towards Vera. Yesterday I check and I see lines like Vera -170. This is an unusually huge move for a fight line, I'm wondering what gives -- unfortunately I jumped on the first Werdum +115 I saw, as I like him to win this fight even at pick'em, now I can get +145...

Another Wandy/Jackson fight would do a huge buy rate. It's one that I'd love to see again




maybe, but I think he goes down a notch and gets a few fights before getting a contending shot again




that was easily the best fight of teh season. Both of them just went in there and banged





I really like both of the underdog lines on this

2 guys 1 ring?