Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Responding To The Nfl Blog
FCP Poker Forum > Daniel's Forums > Daniel's Poker Blog
Pages: 1, 2
Bubba83
I usually agree with most of what Danie writes in his blog, or at least respect his opinion on subjects I don't care about, ie. Religion.

But I disagree that "The NFL is a disgrace"

He brought up some good points about these players who are physically injured from the NFL, and they should be working towards correcting that, but I hardly see how that one aspect of the league makes the whole NFL a disgrace.

The NFL does countless good things for this country through the United Way, and other organizations. It does more good than bad in my opinion, so I don't see how it's a disgrace. How does everyone else feel?
solderz
I agree with you. Daniel seems to think that every job in the US involves a pension, when in actuality, the vast majority of jobs do NOT have pensions. For most of us out there, we get social security disability if we become disabled and that is all. It might seem disgraceful to him, but that is the way it is done here in the US.
Oziumrules
Gene Upshaw is a disgrace and needs to be fired. This same issue has been brought up for years in the NFL retired player circles. Alot has been done to compensate the retired NFL players of the past ie. pension increases and so on, but more help is needed for these players. I know many retired NFL players who feel Gene Upshaw is joke and only cares about himself. Hopefully this TV special will open up some more eyes to this very serious issue.
lucky_charmz
I agree that calling the whole NFL a "disgrace" is a little harsh. I think that it's a bad thing that they are not supporting the retired players finanically, and totally unfair. However, I was thinking the same thing as I read the blog. The NFL has done a lot of great things too, so making a general statement about the whole league like that isn't really called for.
Oziumrules
QUOTE (lucky_charmz @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 11:27 AM) *
I agree that calling the whole NFL a "disgrace" is a little harsh. I think that it's a bad thing that they are not supporting the retired players finanically, and totally unfair. However, I was thinking the same thing as I read the blog. The NFL has done a lot of great things too, so making a general statement about the whole league like that isn't really called for.


Actually the NFL Players Association is a disgrace for allowing Upshaw to still run there affairs.
akoff
The players association is a total disgrace. They have NO, ZERO, NONE balls…that being said the NFL owners are some of the most ruthless overbearing SOB’s I have ever seen. They are however outstanding business men, offer a great product at pretty reasonable rates and most certainly take advantage of the players.

I hate Jeffery Laurie but I love the Philadelphia Eagles and won’t be giving up my season tickets anytime soon…I just got my invoice last night in the mail for the 07 season.

DUE the end of FEBURARY!!!!

At least they screw everybody.
DanielNegreanu
If you watch the special, and see the despair in the eyes of those retired players who just want to health care insurance, it makes you feel strongly that the NFL is failing miserably. These dirty little secrets they don't want the public to see.

As a league, there is more wrong with the NFL than just this. This isn't necessarily the fault of the league itself, but the epidemic of high school players overeating and basically, killing themselves to get over 300+ pounds, in the hopes of being noticed and making the league is also destroying lots of lives. This is more the fault of high school and college sports, but they are trying to mimick the unhealthy human beings we see every Sunday.

Do you know what happens to a 350 pound lineman after their careers have ended? It's really, really, sad in most cases as they balloon up to 400+ pounds, can barely walk, and many suffer early deaths.

I love watching football, but I think it's just so sad what is happening to these guys. While they are playing, they seem to beleive that they are invincible, but in the end they suffer badly.
Dr_Shakes
I believe that the NFL is one of the few sports leagues too that doesn't have guaranteed contracts.
You get hurt, the team lets you go. Goodbye millions. In other leagues they would still have to pay you.
Not sure but I think this is what I heard.

Also Daniel will you not watch and gamble on the superbowl?
I agree with you that the treatment of retired players is dispicable but I can't not watch.
GO COLTS!!!!
Livaso
Its funny that you can respect his opinion on something you don't care about... like religion.
But can't respect his opinion on something you do care about... like football tongue.gif

But I somewhat agree with you. Professional athletes take incredible risks. But then again so do professional gamblers. And like DN said about people that want to become poker players, you can't babysit them. You can't tell them not to do it because they could get left out to hang.
The NFL makes stars out of athletes and even if they're earning profit on the eventual demise of those players, you could say the same thing for Harrah's.

Maybe my comparison is a little off base considering the whole drafting process and how lots of these players have little to nothing to fall back on, but I don't think a league should care-take for its players to the point that seems to be suggested.
myenemy
QUOTE (Oziumrules @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 1:34 PM) *
Actually the NFL Players Association is a disgrace for allowing Upshaw to still run there affairs.


Exactly. Are we sure here that the NFL is all to blame? Unions Suck!!!!!


QUOTE (DanielNegreanu @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 1:59 PM) *
If you watch the special, and see the despair in the eyes of those retired players who just want to health care insurance, it makes you feel strongly that the NFL is failing miserably. These dirty little secrets they don't want the public to see.

As a league, there is more wrong with the NFL than just this. This isn't necessarily the fault of the league itself, but the epidemic of high school players overeating and basically, killing themselves to get over 300+ pounds, in the hopes of being noticed and making the league is also destroying lots of lives. This is more the fault of high school and college sports, but they are trying to mimick the unhealthy human beings we see every Sunday.

Do you know what happens to a 350 pound lineman after their careers have ended? It's really, really, sad in most cases as they balloon up to 400+ pounds, can barely walk, and many suffer early deaths.

I love watching football, but I think it's just so sad what is happening to these guys. While they are playing, they seem to beleive that they are invincible, but in the end they suffer badly.


Listen, Ive seen the desperation in a crackheads eyes too and have not been moved. All Im saying is these guys should have planned ahead.

I love football so much you cant even imagine. But to think for one second that any professional sport isn't a business and any professional athlete isn't a businessman is down right ignorant. I dont want to see anyone in pain anymore than you but times are changing and the players from the past, unfortunately, are absorbing the difficulties that the players of today will likely never know. Whats the average NFL salary? Im not sure but whatever it is plus benefits, these guys have no excuse for not planning for their future today.
As a player for 14 years through college, I can tell you that already at 26, I feel the after effects of football everyday... and I never even had knee surgery!
As for players that are 350lbs+ after retirement, there's no excuse for that no matter what your job was. A 350lb offensiive lineman is in better physical shape than 90% of people. If he doesnt either stay in shape, lose weight or both, Im sorry to say, thats NOT the NFL's fault.
nutzbuster
QUOTE (DanielNegreanu @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 9:59 AM) *
If you watch the special, and see the despair in the eyes of those retired players who just want to health care insurance, it makes you feel strongly that the NFL is failing miserably. These dirty little secrets they don't want the public to see.

As a league, there is more wrong with the NFL than just this. This isn't necessarily the fault of the league itself, but the epidemic of high school players overeating and basically, killing themselves to get over 300+ pounds, in the hopes of being noticed and making the league is also destroying lots of lives. This is more the fault of high school and college sports, but they are trying to mimick the unhealthy human beings we see every Sunday.

Do you know what happens to a 350 pound lineman after their careers have ended? It's really, really, sad in most cases as they balloon up to 400+ pounds, can barely walk, and many suffer early deaths.

I love watching football, but I think it's just so sad what is happening to these guys. While they are playing, they seem to beleive that they are invincible, but in the end they suffer badly.



I have this show TIVO'd but just got back from LA and haven't had a chance to see it yet.

I'm an idiot about such things but is there no pension for the NFL players? I would think that it would be (or could/should be) a mandatory thing that every player and owner contribute to some massive fund to provide if nothing else medical care for everyone who retires from the league. Is there no such system in place? Guess I should wait until I see this for myself, but on the face of it this seems to be a disaster and an embarrassment for the NFL.
jmkiser
Most NFL players typically realize that they are in a dangerous profession with a noted shorter life span then the average human being... compare the NFL to what sumo wrestlers do to their bodies.

Hey, nothing compares to large amounts of money and love of the game smile.gif



Edit: If a study came out that said poker players are 23498234982 times more likely to have a spinal injury due to the long periods of sitting, would you stop playing Daniel?

Edit2: GO COLTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Livaso
QUOTE (jmkiser @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 9:30 AM) *
Hey, nothing compares to large amounts of money and love of the game smile.gif
Edit: If a study came out that said poker players are 23498234982 times more likely to have a spinal injury due to the long periods of sitting, would you stop playing Daniel?


This is kind of what I'm getting at, only more in the sense like this:

What if Chris Moneymaker for some reason got himself involved in a game that was over his head and went bust? Should the WSOP pay him to start back up? He made them a lot of money, they made him a lot of money. He knew what he was getting into.

But just like DN said. They think they're untouchable when they're young only to have their dreams crushed.
But what if you told Reggie White "I don't recommend playing because you could become a cripple for life" or what if you told Daniel Negreanu "Don't do it you'll probably fail and be left with nothing but gambling debts and a deadly gambling addiction that could haunt you to an early grave as you borrow money and lose the trust of everyone you love."

I feel incredible sympathy for the players, even ones that got themselves into that situation. Just as I do drug addicts. And I donate as much of my personal time and money as I can to help those in need. But I'm not going to tell the NFL to raise my ticket price so I don't have to get directly involved. If I buy into the main event and don't cash, I'm not going to ask for 5000 back.
Buy the ticket take the ride, as they say.
pokerfan1080
We are all responsible for our own well being. If we don't take the necessary steps to provide for our future, who are we to demand someone else take care of us?

This may sound harsh, but I don't have alot of sympathy for Liberal/Social issues (and I'm Canadian, lol), especially those that involve poor choices and ignorance, and the public attitude that the rest of us need to pick up their grocery bills because of it.

Now, if these guys have paid into a pension play and that pension plan is not paying out just what it said it would, you have a point. Otherwise, nada.
obrien64
Its ridiculous to think that these folks can't think ahead. I don't agree with DN one bit about the NFL needing to make a change because as much as it is on their shoulders to make a change the people it has affected needed to plan ahead. Where were the complaints when they were living in the nice houses driving nice cars? To say the NFL is a disgrace is nonsense. To say it is a very cutthroat business would be more up the right alley. Lets see, from Wikipedia, who used an ESPN list as a source "Dobler is best known as arguably the dirtiest player in NFL history." So a guy who made a living cheating and trying to hurt others outside the rules deserves my sympathy?

Even if they didnt get paid the million dollar contracts the league minimum for a player is still more than most will make in a year. if im a rookie this year i make 260,000 dollars. Thats more than the president makes. To call the NFL a disgrace is just asinine, as you should include poor planning by people playing a game where they push their bodies to the max know that future problems may be in the works. Look at Muhammed Ali. The man was a great boxer but because of his profession is now disabled. as sad as it is its the chance contact sport athletes take. I dont know much about hockey but i would assume a lot of those players have health problems afterwards to. Does the NHL compensate better than the NFL?
MorphyATL
I'll agree that the NFL PA is a disgrace. They are far more worried about licensing and image of the players than they are about actually taking care of their own.
Fade2241
I agree with the OP in the sense that the NFL does a lot of good things for their public image but there is a real problem here. My uncle was a pitcher for the Mets in the 70's and baseball has an excellent benefits program for their former players. He was able to start his own real estate company and have a successful life after baseball but couldn't have without the help he received from MLB and the PA.

Former players really aren't asking a lot for their disabilities, just enough to get by. Why is that too much to ask?? Based on the incoming revenue the league receives, this shouldn't be a problem. And it's amazing to think that a players association could turn their back on retired players like that. Gene Upshaw puts the *** in association.
Fade2241
QUOTE (obrien64 @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 11:09 AM) *
Even if they didnt get paid the million dollar contracts the league minimum for a player is still more than most will make in a year.


Man you are forgetting that these guys can ONLY WORK FOR APPOX. 10yrs! Take inflation into account and there's a problem there for the players who are now disabled because of the game. How can you not get that??
Dr_Shakes
QUOTE (myenemy @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 9:27 AM) *
Exactly. Are we sure here that the NFL is all to blame? Unions Suck!!!!!


Yeah what have Unions ever done for workers? rolleyes.gif

I think the main point is that the sucess of the NFL was built off the hard work of these retired players but the NFL does not give enough back in appreciation. If the NFL was going around saying we are just about the money and we don't care about people that would be one thing but they put on a facade like we are this caring corporation and then treat the people who made them what they are like yesterday's garbage. The early pioneers of NFL did not recieve millions so you can't say they squandered what was given.
CaptainHooks
Daniel,

First and foremost, I have to say how much I respect you for all the things you do, say, and stand for. I'm a huge fan, and Ive been apart of the FCP army since late 2004 and I truely enjoy the site and all of your blogs...keep up the entertainment!!!

Its your blog, your opinion, so you can say whatever you want...but I would like to add my 2 cents.

I am currently finishing up my last year of med school with a focus on physical rehabilitation, so I would say I have some knowledge on functional capacity and independence of a person.

In the case of Conrad Dobler, If the man has had 7 operations and spent 100 days in the hospital he must have some hell of a health plan or a ridiculous amount of money coming from somewhere. Any type of knee surgery should be a 2-3 day max stay. Thats where our health care system sucks. total knee replacements and they want you out and home sometimes THAT DAY!!!! While this man is averaging over 10 days per stay?? Sounds fishy....Also all the pain meds,Im willing to bet this is being covered by something as well. I doubt a person lives in constant pain. Whatever they do to exacerbate pain, they stop doing. Maybe he has constant pain when walking/weight bearing, but there are other means of transportation.

Yes, his legs may be 90% impaired, maybe even 100%. It sucks that he probably wont ever walk again but to say that he cant work is absurd. I deal with many spinal cord injury patients and many of them work!!! In todays society, being 56 years old does not mean you dont have to work. Hard labor is out of the question but there is work to be done.

Using a low number as $26,000 as an average football salary in 1970s is misleading. Taking in consideration the time value of money, that number is like having $40-45k in 2007. Today, Average salary per person in the U.S. is $30-35k who will work a 40 hour work week, 50 weeks a year. NFL players get to sleep in most days, rarely put in 8 hours of work and have FEB- JULY practically off.

Who knows what this person did with his money, maybe he was smart??!! Most likely not. But lack of planning on his part is of no emergency to the NFL. Few players make it out of the game with no chronic injuries that will last them a lifetime. Its a system where the NFL abuses its players and the players abuse the NFL.

You have people who cant read or write but can run a 4.2 40 yard dash and will get a FREE college degree, and possibly make tons of money. This doesnt include all the extra benefits that the "stars" receive at home, on the road, wherever.

Take your beats and move on.. This man has clearly been out of the game for probably over 20 years, what has he been doing since..A lot of nothing is my guess. He's banged up and bruised and the NFL wont pay disability for him. It would be near impossible for the NFL to cover all injuries sustained during competition.

When a player decides to become a pro athelete, they are well aware of the risk of injury associated with the sport. Whether they choose to recognize the chance that it could be them is another story.


Oh, and DN...Do me a favor and win the next WPT so I dont stay up all night sweating the action on cardplayer just to see another 2nd!!!

j/k

-Alan (aka Captainhooks)
obrien64
QUOTE (Fade2241 @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 10:18 AM) *
Man you are forgetting that these guys can ONLY WORK FOR APPOX. 10yrs! Take inflation into account and there's a problem there for the players who are now disabled because of the game. How can you not get that??



You are right, how can they only work for 10 years and expect to be ok from that? Well if you look at the league minimum salary chart if a player did only play for 10 years (which seriously most can play for 10 plus) He would stand to make 5.7 million dollars during that career, not counting signing bonuses almost everyone gets and the incentives on their contracts. 5.7 million dollars, lets cut that in half for the government and we are looking at just around 2.85 million dollars. a teacher that makes 30 thousand dollars would have to work 95 years to achieve this feat. This is all bad financial management not a hosejob by the NFL. so you are right, how can i not get that? If they are disabled thats why they have health insurance. average people that get hit with cancer are able to make ends meet but a muti-millionare is supposed to be compensated because of their health problems and possible lack of health insurance?
Fade2241
QUOTE (obrien64 @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 11:33 AM) *
You are right, how can they only work for 10 years and expect to be ok from that? Well if you look at the league minimum salary chart if a player did only play for 10 years (which seriously most can play for 10 plus) He would stand to make 5.7 million dollars during that career, not counting signing bonuses almost everyone gets and the incentives on their contracts. 5.7 million dollars, lets cut that in half for the government and we are looking at just around 2.85 million dollars. a teacher that makes 30 thousand dollars would have to work 95 years to achieve this feat. This is all bad financial management not a hosejob by the NFL. so you are right, how can i not get that? If they are disabled thats why they have health insurance. average people that get hit with cancer are able to make ends meet but a muti-millionare is supposed to be compensated because of their health problems and possible lack of health insurance?


That's TODAY'S salaries, go run those numbers for 25yrs ago and then you'll see what I'm talking about. This will not be as bad of a problem in the future because the players today are compensated better. Back in the day Football wasn't the feature sport like it is today. Those guys didn't make a truck load of money. I'm pretty sure if you were injured on the job you'd want some type of disability assistance from the company who put you at risk. It's the same thing. The NFL is an employer just like any other company. They should be responsible for paying out that money.
myenemy
QUOTE (obrien64 @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 3:33 PM) *
You are right, how can they only work for 10 years and expect to be ok from that? Well if you look at the league minimum salary chart if a player did only play for 10 years (which seriously most can play for 10 plus) He would stand to make 5.7 million dollars during that career, not counting signing bonuses almost everyone gets and the incentives on their contracts. 5.7 million dollars, lets cut that in half for the government and we are looking at just around 2.85 million dollars. a teacher that makes 30 thousand dollars would have to work 95 years to achieve this feat. This is all bad financial management not a hosejob by the NFL. so you are right, how can i not get that? If they are disabled thats why they have health insurance. average people that get hit with cancer are able to make ends meet but a muti-millionare is supposed to be compensated because of their health problems and possible lack of health insurance?

Actually the average NFl players career is 3.5 seasons but obviously your likelihood of lifelong debilitation is decreased with a shorter career.
eYank
THE MLB was like this in the 50's and 60's too. Players who played back then had no pention and once they retired, they had to go find another job somewhere, and get health insurance. Luckily there is an organization called B.A.T. (Baseball assisatance team) who helps these players. They hold an annual dinner every year in NYC and I went 3 years ago for the first time then they next year. The cost off a ticket w as around $600, but someone took me w/ my dad and brother that year. For the 1st 2 hours we were able to get autographs from older players, most of who are famous including; Sandy Koufax, Joe Morgan, (the guys who hit the shot heard round the world, cant think of his name), Tommy Lasorda...and the list goes on. During the dinner, a former player, who I also forgot his name told a story of how B.A.T. helped save his son. He had played in the 50's and had no insurance or pention. His son, was diagnosed with cancer around 2000. B.A.T. basically saved the man's life by paying for his medical bills. But they also help 100s of other players. Im very surprised the NFL doesnt have this
Fade2241
QUOTE (myenemy @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 12:09 PM) *
Actually the average NFl players career is 3.5 seasons but obviously your likelihood of lifelong debilitation is decreased with a shorter career.


That's because they have to average in the Ryan Leafs of the world and other DBs and WRs who can only cut it for a couple of years. If healthy, most starters in the NFL have between 6-8 year careers. Most the time, those are the guys who get hurt.
Loismustdie
I saw that special as well,and wouldn't be suprised if it has some sort of spin on it- it's no secret that Gumbel has had a hard on for Upshaw for years.

There are 2 sides to every story- for example, it would seem to me that both of those gentleman could easily do what I do if they wanted to. I don't need to be in any kind of shape to be a broker.
Jam-Fly
I think Daniel beliefs too much of what he sees on TV. One sided arguments can be used to make anything seem real E.g. my friend once saw a documentary entitled 'did the titanic really sink?' and he came up to me and said seriously, it was rly believable. You've got to be kidding me.

Calling the NFL a disgrace because of one hour long show is a little extreme. I don't doubt that those guys were in agony, or that the NFL were in the wrong, but as I said, one sided evidence can proove almost anything.
GrouchPotato
Benefits flowing from a pension plan are based on years worked and amount made while working. DN seems to be advocating a plan whereby disablity payments are made to all players who are injured and cannot work regardless of years in the league. The idea behind a pension plan is that it is self sustaining. In order to make that work, you have to have strict requirements on who gets benefits. Simply making payments to those who "need held" is not feasible in the long run. The pension plan would go broke.

Now, that is not to say that the NFL is not capable of taking care of these dudes. I just don't know of any American companies that pay out more benefits than they have to. There are lots of sad stories regarding the American worker. The true disgrace is the fact that 50 million working americans do not have health insurance.
pokerfan1080
QUOTE (eYank @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 3:13 PM) *
THE MLB was like this in the 50's and 60's too. Players who played back then had no pention and once they retired, they had to go find another job somewhere, and get health insurance. Luckily there is an organization called B.A.T. (Baseball assisatance team) who helps these players. They hold an annual dinner every year in NYC and I went 3 years ago for the first time then they next year. The cost off a ticket w as around $600, but someone took me w/ my dad and brother that year. For the 1st 2 hours we were able to get autographs from older players, most of who are famous including; Sandy Koufax, Joe Morgan, (the guys who hit the shot heard round the world, cant think of his name), Tommy Lasorda...and the list goes on. During the dinner, a former player, who I also forgot his name told a story of how B.A.T. helped save his son. He had played in the 50's and had no insurance or pention. His son, was diagnosed with cancer around 2000. B.A.T. basically saved the man's life by paying for his medical bills. But they also help 100s of other players. Im very surprised the NFL doesnt have this

Wasn't BAT started by the players, not MLB?

NFL players are free to start such a program too.
Balloon guy
QUOTE (pokerfan1080 @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 11:58 AM) *
Wasn't BAT started by the players, not MLB?

NFL players are free to start such a program too.



Much better if the governement runs this program.

Look how good of a job they are doing with the War, Online Gambling, DMV, and Election Fraud.
eYank
QUOTE (pokerfan1080 @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 11:58 AM) *
Wasn't BAT started by the players, not MLB?

NFL players are free to start such a program too.

yeah i think ur right but still, if so many people are having problems you think something like this would start

also...this is the reason Tiki Barber is retiring, he doesnt want to be like some of those guys and be in pain the rest of his life
DanielNegreanu
Some of you guys are TOTALLY missing the point and are making arguments that aren't based on the issue. Forget about whether they planned ahead, etc., the FACT is, they have signed CONTRACTS that supposedly provide them with health care benefits and the league isn't paying them! They aren't asking for extra money, they are simply asking for the money that they are ENTITLED to. Any other argument doesn't holw water, this is simply fact. 9000 retired players... you mean to tell me that only 144 of them have suffered injuries serious enough to warrant their health insurance being covered? It's not possible.

Even if a guy did save up 30 million dollars, but in the end was left unable to work, he is STILL entitled to the money he is owed by the NFL. The NFL is cheating the players by not paying them, all other issues are totally irrelevant.
rgold79
QUOTE (DanielNegreanu @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 4:16 PM) *
Some of you guys are TOTALLY missing the point and are making arguments that aren't based on the issue. Forget about whether they planned ahead, etc., the FACT is, they have signed CONTRACTS that supposedly provide them with health care benefits and the league isn't paying them! They aren't asking for extra money, they are simply asking for the money that they are ENTITLED to. Any other argument doesn't holw water, this is simply fact. 9000 retired players... you mean to tell me that only 144 of them have suffered injuries serious enough to warrant their health insurance being covered? It's not possible.

Even if a guy did save up 30 million dollars, but in the end was left unable to work, he is STILL entitled to the money he is owed by the NFL. The NFL is cheating the players by not paying them, all other issues are totally irrelevant.



This may be slightly off topic, but if you think this is bad you should see how the state and federal governments are refusing disability payments and medical coverage to police and firemen who served as first responders on 9/11 and subsequently became ill from breathing toxic air for months while working in the recovery zone. These people played a tremendous role in helping the country recover from that disaster and now many of them are being cast aside.
DanielNegreanu
QUOTE (obrien64 @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 10:09 AM) *
Its ridiculous to think that these folks can't think ahead. I don't agree with DN one bit about the NFL needing to make a change because as much as it is on their shoulders to make a change the people it has affected needed to plan ahead. Where were the complaints when they were living in the nice houses driving nice cars? To say the NFL is a disgrace is nonsense. To say it is a very cutthroat business would be more up the right alley. Lets see, from Wikipedia, who used an ESPN list as a source "Dobler is best known as arguably the dirtiest player in NFL history." So a guy who made a living cheating and trying to hurt others outside the rules deserves my sympathy?

Even if they didnt get paid the million dollar contracts the league minimum for a player is still more than most will make in a year. if im a rookie this year i make 260,000 dollars. Thats more than the president makes. To call the NFL a disgrace is just asinine, as you should include poor planning by people playing a game where they push their bodies to the max know that future problems may be in the works. Look at Muhammed Ali. The man was a great boxer but because of his profession is now disabled. as sad as it is its the chance contact sport athletes take. I dont know much about hockey but i would assume a lot of those players have health problems afterwards to. Does the NHL compensate better than the NFL?


You are completely missing the point. Here:

Let's say that I hire you to work for me. You have a contract that says you'll have a dental plan that will cover dental problems. Three years later, your teeth are a mess. You get three doctors to say that you need a root canal and a whole bunch of other work. Then I bring in my "special doctor" who looks at your teeth and says, "No, it looks like you'll still be able to eat food with those. Application denied."

Dude, it's pretty simple, the NFL doctors are completely screwing the players, and it's highly likely that they are being pressured into doing so by league heads that want to cut costs. It's disgusting.

I don't care if they planned ahead or not, NONE of that even matters. The fact ism these players are entitled to health care and the NFL isn't paying for it.
DanielNegreanu
QUOTE (rgold79 @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 1:22 PM) *
This may be slightly off topic, but if you think this is bad you should see how the state and federal governments are refusing disability payments and medical coverage to police and firemen who served as first responders on 9/11 and subsequently became ill from breathing toxic air for months while working in the recovery zone. These people played a tremendous role in helping the country recover from that disaster and now many of them are being cast aside.


I did see that and you are right, it is even more disgusting. They claim that the HEROES working down there on 9/11 likely weren't wearing their protective masks so they aren't entitled to health care. We're talking about legitimate HEROES here, and they are tossed aside like yesterday's newspaper.
Derswick
Fro those of you who think Daniel is way off base pehaps you should listne to Jerry Kramer, the Green Bay Paker great. As well if you love the sport and want to help out I'd suggest that you visit his site jerrykramer.com not so coincidentlay Jerry was interviewed on the Jim Rome show today and if you guys have an oppertuinty I'd suggest you listen to his interview, I believe it may be avaliavle on Jim's web site in a Pod cast.

DN perhaps you could put this link into your blog as well.

http://www.jerrykramer.com/index.html

Best Wishes to all.
nutzbuster
QUOTE (DanielNegreanu @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 2:28 PM) *
I did see that and you are right, it is even more disgusting. They claim that the HEROES working down there on 9/11 likely weren't wearing their protective masks so they aren't entitled to health care. We're talking about legitimate HEROES here, and they are tossed aside like yesterday's newspaper.



Amen to this! Inexcusable. Just watch that Nicklaus Cage movie about 911 and you'll see a glimpse of how brave those folks really were. They were scared to death and still went in those buildings. Beyond heroics in my book. Do not miss this film. Sorry for the semi-thread highjack but it is a great movie without a political agenda that everyone should see. And its a true story.

And the NFL needs to pull their heads out of their assses. Just incredible....
MemBirdman
QUOTE (DanielNegreanu @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 3:28 PM) *
I did see that and you are right, it is even more disgusting. They claim that the HEROES working down there on 9/11 likely weren't wearing their protective masks so they aren't entitled to health care. We're talking about legitimate HEROES here, and they are tossed aside like yesterday's newspaper.


Those things that you listed, I agree completely with you, DN. They players are getting screwed by the NFL Lawyers and it's a travesty.

I can't help but think of the whole WPT issue, though. The players in the WPT case say that the WPT is using their likenesses and marketability to enhance the brand, but the players aren't getting treated fairly in the deal...at least, that's how I understand the case. And you've sided with the brand instead of the players for reasons that don't need to be dealt with here in Analogyland.

Here, the former players in the NFL are having their likenesses and marketability used to enhance the brand, but the players aren't getting treated fairly in the deal. So here, you side with the players and not the brand.

I don't dispute that there are issues in both cases and that they don't match exactly. But I do want to point out that in the WPT issue, the players have said they're doing it "for the players," meaning they are creating an Us vs. Them issue, with players on one side and the WPT on the other. And you've gone on record saying that it's not the case, that these are individual instances that should be treated as such and should not reflect the business practices of the brand at large.

BUT, in the NFL case, you're saying it IS an Us vs. Them issue, that these are not individual instances but that the entirety of the NFL is to be held responsible for these circumstances.

All of that longwindedness is to say: I don't blame the NFL as a whole for these instances.

~~

Check out gamesover.org. Former Packer Ken Ruttgers started this organization to try to work with players whose careers are over, be it in High School, College or after the Pro level. He saw a need and he's addressing it. I think it may help balance out your opinions right now.
Oziumrules
QUOTE (nutzbuster @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 4:34 PM) *
Amen to this! Inexcusable. Just watch that Nicklaus Cage movie about 911 and you'll see a glimpse of how brave those folks really were. They were scared to death and still went in those buildings. Beyond heroics in my book. Do not miss this film. Sorry for the semi-thread highjack but it is a great movie without a political agenda that everyone should see. And its a true story.

And the NFL needs to pull their heads out of their assses. Just incredible....


Must be a golfer!
GrouchPotato
QUOTE (DanielNegreanu @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 1:26 PM) *
You are completely missing the point. Here:

Let's say that I hire you to work for me. You have a contract that says you'll have a dental plan that will cover dental problems. Three years later, your teeth are a mess. You get three doctors to say that you need a root canal and a whole bunch of other work. Then I bring in my "special doctor" who looks at your teeth and says, "No, it looks like you'll still be able to eat food with those. Application denied."

Dude, it's pretty simple, the NFL doctors are completely screwing the players, and it's highly likely that they are being pressured into doing so by league heads that want to cut costs. It's disgusting.

I don't care if they planned ahead or not, NONE of that even matters. The fact ism these players are entitled to health care and the NFL isn't paying for it.


I think you are missing the point, bro. These dudes may not qualify under the contract for the benefits they are asking for. I'm not playing the lawyer card, but I can tell you from personal experience that disability applicants can find doctors to say anything they want. It is very, very hard to qualify for permanent disability benefits under a pension plan. You basically have to show that you cannot work at all. In a moral sense you are correct, it sucks that these dudes can't get full disability benefits, but to say the NFL is in violation of the contract is simply wrong. Certainly no judge or jury has ever found that to be the case.

So yes, the NFL should take care of its own, but in the real world very few companies choose to do that.
logic411
Step 1: Step down from Soapbox
Step 2: Remove Soapbox from home
Step 3: Burn Soapbox
Step 4: Feed starving children
Step 5: Build boat for river I am crying for NFL players.

That's All
Birdsoft
[quote name='DanielNegreanu' date='Tuesday, January 30th, 2007']they have signed CONTRACTS that supposedly provide them with health care benefits and the league isn't paying them![/quote]
[/quote]

I usually agree with you , but I didnt agree with this UNLESS what you have just claimed is true??? If it is, then the NFL is at total Fault!

But understand that most of us work/ed for other real companies, and one thing is a given in these situations that we assume to also be true for these X-NFL players, which is the background for a lot of these posts.

When you sign a contract for work, the health insurance agreement is rarely if ever guaranteed for the rest of your life. If you are no longer in their employment then it is not the responsibility of that company to continue to cover you. If I could find a company that would hire me for 3 years, and then cover medical for the rest of my life, well where do I sign up. But if they actually have a contract from the 60s saying this then yes I agree... (and of course legitimate disability that can be undeniabley directly linked is also the NFL's responsibility, but who's to say that PlayerX becoming say a lumberjack for 15 years wasnt also to blame for him not being able to work when he's in his 60s)..

But if it was spun on this possibly one-sided show to make you think this, and it is not true, well it stands to reason what everyone else is saying...

Yes, I agree that the NFL has the ability to help these guys out and it is not good press and a little bit sour that they don't. But if you look at it more business wise it seems like an everyday thing. A lot of little guys that made the business what it is get stepped on or forgotten. And yes, in most cases Players Organizations are the most help to these older players so Im suprised the NFL players havent stepped up more.

(oh and awesome job in Tunica)

Brian(Birdsoft)
Loismustdie
I never gathered from that Gumble rip Gene Upshaw special that medical wasn't being covered. I don't think that was ever even said.
I'MFULLOFCHIP
This story about the special NFL doctor reminds me of a line from the movie Papillon when a doctor examines prisoners for fitness: “Next. Next… You’re fine. Next. I must be better than I feel. You're in wonderful shape. How do you fail an examination like this?”

Just another case of a multi-millionaire dollar business screwing those who built their very foundation. All they care about is money. The only reason the NFL supports the United Way is to give themselves good PR. Half the players are on illegal drugs. They’re no better than horses who get juiced to win a million dollar race. Of course, the difference is horses don’t have a choice; humans do.
Tiltinagain
QUOTE (GrouchPotato @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 2:42 PM) *
I think you are missing the point, bro. These dudes may not qualify under the contract for the benefits they are asking for. I'm not playing the lawyer card, but I can tell you from personal experience that disability applicants can find doctors to say anything they want. It is very, very hard to qualify for permanent disability benefits under a pension plan. You basically have to show that you cannot work at all. In a moral sense you are correct, it sucks that these dudes can't get full disability benefits, but to say the NFL is in violation of the contract is simply wrong. Certainly no judge or jury has ever found that to be the case.

So yes, the NFL should take care of its own, but in the real world very few companies choose to do that.


QFT

Watching this show all you see is the ex players side of this. How do you know they qualify? Because Their doctors say so? Please.

Let's look at an example......you sign a contract to represent a poker site, turns out the site is run very well, attracts lots of players and makes many, many times the revenues projected. You look at your contract and decide it isn't fair because, even though you agreed to the terms of the contract when you signed it, it isn't "fair" now because, based on the money the site is making, you should be making much more money for your endorsement. The site refuses so your only alternative is to go public with the "injustice" to try to get this prominent site to bend to public pressure and pay you more than the contract allows since no court of law in the country is going to rule in your favor.

Just a theory.
obrien64
QUOTE (DanielNegreanu @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 1:26 PM) *
You are completely missing the point. Here:

Let's say that I hire you to work for me. You have a contract that says you'll have a dental plan that will cover dental problems. Three years later, your teeth are a mess. You get three doctors to say that you need a root canal and a whole bunch of other work. Then I bring in my "special doctor" who looks at your teeth and says, "No, it looks like you'll still be able to eat food with those. Application denied."

Dude, it's pretty simple, the NFL doctors are completely screwing the players, and it's highly likely that they are being pressured into doing so by league heads that want to cut costs. It's disgusting.

I don't care if they planned ahead or not, NONE of that even matters. The fact ism these players are entitled to health care and the NFL isn't paying for it.


You are right in the fact that the league is probably trying to cut costs, but dont even act like its only an NFL problem. This happens almost everywhere. How often do you hear about a veteran not getting the proper care after he put his life on the line for the country? it happens a lot.

Furthermore I think that you may have taken too much from this documentary (even though i have not seen it, i will admit) But look at it like this. You hire me and give me a dental plan. My teeth get messed up and i go to the dentist. he takes a look at my form and sees that Daniel Negreanu, or Full Contact Poker is paying for my work. That dentist knows you are worth a quite a bit of money and that might influence him. As a professional it shouldnt but to act as if it doesnt happen is a little naive. So this documentary may not have covered both sides in that regard as there are plenty of doctors who diagnose the worst to get the insurance money when some work isnt necessary. If i was a doctor and someone said that the billion dollar empire that is the NFL was footing the bill then I might be a bit hasty in my diagnosis. So the NFL comes in and says that no, the injury isnt that severe and that painkillers would do just as good as the surgery. Why is that any less possible than the NFL (which im sure has a bit of money to spare) stiffing injured people?
jooka
Ive read up a liltle bit about what DN is talking about and I agree it sucks, but on the same hand he is talking about an immerging business(then) comparitively to now. business then was like that, its not just the nfl. Should they do something about it? sure. Should the rest of the business world? sure. im gonna say I havent researched it, but Id bet DN's favorite sport hockey aint so clean in this subject either.(I really dont know but I wouldnt be suprised either) So I get the NFL should do better, so should the most of the world.



anyway, I have another question Ive been wanting to ask and maybe DN will see it here. How many losers does it take to have a winner in poker?
grocery_mony
Football is an abosolutely brutal sport. Just about everyone I know who played high school ball 10 years ago have had lasting effects today. Bad backs, screwed up knees, early arthretis. Anyone who plays that game has my total respect. You play football at the highest level you are sacrafising your body long term. Football players have the absolute worst union of all the sports. Everyone sees the big numbers thrown around to the leauges elite, but the grunts on the line or running full speed into each other on special teams ussually dont make much money in a very short careers. The very least they deserve is to have the health problems taking care of that were directly caused on the field making footbal the most lucrative sport in north america. Shame on there union because that should be priority #1.
Loismustdie
QUOTE (grocery_mony @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 11:21 PM) *
Football is an abosolutely brutal sport. Just about everyone I know who played high school ball 10 years ago have had lasting effects today. Bad backs, screwed up knees, early arthretis. Anyone who plays that game has my total respect. You play football at the highest level you are sacrafising your body long term. Football players have the absolute worst union of all the sports. Everyone sees the big numbers thrown around to the leauges elite, but the grunts on the line or running full speed into each other on special teams ussually dont make much money in a very short careers. The very least they deserve is to have the health problems taking care of that were directly caused on the field making footbal the most lucrative sport in north america. Shame on there union because that should be priority #1.



There health insurance is covered.
pokerfan1080
QUOTE (DanielNegreanu @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 5:16 PM) *
Some of you guys are TOTALLY missing the point and are making arguments that aren't based on the issue. Forget about whether they planned ahead, etc., the FACT is, they have signed CONTRACTS that supposedly provide them with health care benefits and the league isn't paying them! They aren't asking for extra money, they are simply asking for the money that they are ENTITLED to. Any other argument doesn't holw water, this is simply fact. 9000 retired players... you mean to tell me that only 144 of them have suffered injuries serious enough to warrant their health insurance being covered? It's not possible.

Even if a guy did save up 30 million dollars, but in the end was left unable to work, he is STILL entitled to the money he is owed by the NFL. The NFL is cheating the players by not paying them, all other issues are totally irrelevant.

I find this interesting because everything I've read says nothing about players being denied what the league owes them. The players are getting their pension benefits as contracted way back when, and their pensions have even been increased a few times since they retired.

Can you post a link to something that states otherwise?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2012 Invision Power Services, Inc.