You are on the button with A K . An early player, a middle player, and the cutoff limp. You raise. The blinds fold and the limpers call. T

he flop is shown in the picture.



Everyone checks. The turn is the Ad , giving you top pair and a gutshot straight draw. The limpers check and you bet. The early limper calls, the middle limper folds, and the cutoff check-raises. The pot contains 8.5 big bets. What do you do?

bet the flop on the button.

as played either fold or 3bet depending on reads.

The situation is given that you checked the flop and now it's on the turn card...

He knew that.

i realize this. given that we ****ed up, i either 3bet or fold depending on how both the turn bettor and turn raiser have played thus far.

there isn't one way to play this hand after we messed up the flop.

Checky,

Usually I agree with you, but not here- I like a check on this flop. We have 5 outs to the nuts (T's and backdoor flush) and probably roughly 3 overcard outs. If everyone calls, there's maybe a smidgeon of value in betting. If we get check-raised and wind up heads-up, it's a disaster.

Obviously, it's good if everyone folds, but that's extremely unlikely on a flop like this. And there's not much we can do to "clean up outs" with a flop bet; nobody's folding AT or KJ for one bet here. I say take a free card and allow ourselves to get out cheap if the turn is no help.
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Oh, and the turn is a pretty clear fold after we get check-raised, unless we have some kind of a read that CO could be pulling a move here.

But our check on the flop gave us no information of the other players, when the bets were 1/2

Now we are looking for info and we've shown weakness on the flop.

So are we getting true info to the hand, or did we open the door for J10 to bluff us off the hand.


If you are going to waste the flop with the best position, then you shouldn't be surprised that the game got harder.

I'm confused as to why the CO would check raise. He has no reason to think we will bet the turn after we check behind on the flop, so if his hand is really that good, why isn't he betting out on the turn in the first place?

i'm betting for a free card with the possible (admittedly, not too likely) added bonus of clearing up outs--not for value unless it's a weird table, and not to clean up outs very often either. unless we spike a ten in two cards, i want to get to showdown multiway as cheaply as possible.

if this is a game where 5-6 to a flop is relatively abnormal, we're likely looking at a lot of pocket pairs we'd like to fold since they're ahead of us. if it's normal for the table, this bet may surprisingly be for value relative to a loose, passive field that's pretty big. you mentioned AT and KT type hands--we're ahead of these hands, we need to bet at them.

agreed about the turn if we get checkraised, though, unless we somehow end up priced in for three outs (i have trouble believing all four tens are free) to see a river.

i am not betting this turn UI obviously, either.

the thing is that we just walked blindly into this turn mess by checking the flop and i'd often fold the turn to two cold without any info. that might mean folding a winning hand sometimes, but keep in mind that folding a winner is ALWAYS a bigger mistake than calling down a 2nd place hand in pots this size.

There are three people there other than you. I think getting the free card on the flop was correct instead of betting and perhaps getting check-raised...

As the play on the turn (the question), you should definitely fold. You need to be very scared of the the re-raise as the guy is doing that from a not so good position and definitely has you beat (A very strong re-raise). He probably has the straight already, or a set, or possibly (not likely two pair)...

In either situation you have at best 4 outs.(3 Ts, and perhaps we can count 1 out for the Ace) (I counted one Ace, not two, because there is a higher chance that the other player has a set or straight, so the Ace won't help you). (And I didn't count any of the 3 kings, as it puts four cards to straight (with the T) on the board and with 4 people in that pot, a King won't help you)..

So you have 4 outs with one card to come. that is 4/47 which is 8.5 % (and pay attention that even then you might have to split the pot with someone else who has a K). There is only 8.5 BB in the pot, so you would need at least 12% to win for a profitable call (re-raise is obviously a wrong move here). Counting the fact that you might end up splitting the pot, you should fold here...

Cheers,
Nima

That board gives us about the 12th nuts on the turn in a crowded field. The preflop raise gets rid of maybe three of them, so you're down to 9 plausible hands that have you crushed. However, some of those would have bet the flop, so the likelyhood that you're actually up against more than one or two in that field that have you crushed is smaller. TPTK is likely second, and possibly third at this point. A little flop bet from the button would have simplified this hand a LOT.

Fold. Calling off two more big bets is dumb -- you can get those bets into a pot where they're in better shape than this. Raising is suicidal. You'll probably get popped from CO, and have to call that, and his river bet. 5 big bets, and only 4 outs for a winner (or possible chop)? No, thank you.

Does anyone notice we still have a ton of outs on the turn?

Like 4 to the nut straight, although it could be a chop, and tons of outs to beat 2 pair...

Either way, I bet the flop 100% of the time here, which is probably why I can bet/call the turn, since I bloated it on the flop.

You really should have bet this flop. Not calling here on the turn is a big mistake IMO. I probably make a crying call on the river also.

The only outs to beat two pair are the 3 Kings left and the two Aces, more than likely neither one will be good enough, given everyone has called and the fact that the guy to our right check-raised from a bad position.

I would consider the Tens as outs (of course, since we get the nut straight) but you can't count them all as full outs as you probably will end up splitting with KQ or something.

Nima

1) Bet the flop AINEC

2) It is likely the early limper will call the turn giving us 9.5-1 to call.

3) The example you used to calculate the straight outs was wrong. There are only 46 cards unknown on the turn, not 47.

4) We likely have the early limper beat as he would be more aggresive if he had TPTK beat

5) If the check raise is from A5, QJ, or AJ we have 13, 12, & 10 outs respectively. Hidden outs rule.

6) We can discount the likelyhood of a set as QQ & JJ would raise preflop and 55 cannot afford to give another freecard on the turn and would've bet, not check-raised, against 3 other players. In fact the check-raise looks more like a retarded bluff/semi-bluff rather than any hand that beats us.

7) Folding blows. It's the weak-tight approach that Ciaffone & Brier got blasted for when they wrote "Middle Limit Hold'em"

8) You could actually make an argument for raising here against the correct opponents to blow away the early player (cleaning up outs) and take a free showdown UI against the cut-off.

9) Call

Quick Lesson in Hidden Outs:

5JQ A board.

We hold AK.

Opponent holds two pair, say QJ.

We have 3 Ks, 2 As, 3 5s to beat QJ.

Change his hand to Q5.

3s K, 2 As, 3 Js beat his two pair.

Again, this time J5.

3sK, 2 As, 3 Qs beat his two pair.

(and of course the Ts for each example)

********

Moral - Don't forget the counterfeiting outs.

If we take the first example, where he has QJ, we have AK, and the board comes 5QJA5, his hand is QQJJA, we have AA55K. We win.

Cheers.

- Zach

EDIT -

I didn't even think about A5 hands where we can hit any Q, J, K or T to beat him.... yeah, 13 outs.

If he has AJ, 3 Qs, 4 Ts, 3 Ks = 10 outs.

Aside from the straight, or a set, AQ is the only two pair hand we are in a bit of trouble against, and even then we have 7 outs.

It all depends on how these guys have been playing and the chip stack size. But in general, you reraise the guy to your right. Cause if you call, hes gonna move all in after the river and if you thought you were beat on the turn, you wont call now, unless you get lucky and hit a 10. Reraise to find out on the turn.

Title of this thread: LIMIT HOLDEM QUIZ.

We discussed this quiz in another forum too. Different points of view from people on this forum...

checking that flop on the button is a huge no-no, it should have never gotten to that point in the first place