A local $210 mtt with 50 players.

Down to the final 5 players and I am the button with about 50k in chips. Blinds are 3k/6k and 100 antes. 1st place pays just over 3k, 2nd 2k, 3rd 1k, 4th 800 and 5th about 550.

UTG player raises to 12k next player moves all in for about 20k and now I look and see..........JJ ....CRAP! I hate this hand in general.

I take a little time and pick up a tell that the original raiser is going to make the call of the reraise which would also put him all in. This is a reliable tell that I have used to my advantage since we started the 10 handed final table.

My thoughts: I could call (or push) here and possibly take out two shorter stacks putting my self in the chip lead and on track for a 3k pay off and not be elimated but would be short stacked if I lose the pot. But wait.......a raise and reraise (with a for sure call from the raiser) someone has to have A something or K something. Why else would they raise reraise? Possibly even AA or KK, QQ would be equally as bad. Both players have shown a fondness for Ax suited (why do people think that a suited Ax is always playable?) they could also be on smaller pairs, 10 10, 99, etc. What to do, what to do..................

I'll get your thoughts and tell you what I did and the results in a later post...........

You'll get a ton better replies in Tourney Strat....

I personally don't know what I'd do...lol.

Trivially easy push. The difference between 4th and 5th is negligible as is the difference between 3rd and 4th. It's in the Top 2 where the payouts really start to go up. Tons of hands you dominate are in the ranges for these players including A-x and lower pairs. You need to maximize your chip equity here and a push does it. If you're up against AK and ATs for instance, pushing here is a very, very +EV situation for you.

Also, I think you need to elaborate a little bit on this tell. Does it just mean that the original raiser has a hand or does it mean that he's excited about how incredibly strong he is and has to have AA-QQ? Unless you have a super-reliable tell of extreme strength (which would be almost impossible if as you suggest you didn't know this player until the tournament started), then I see no reason not to push here.

It might be a good idea to pick a better spot here. To state the obvious, in the best case scenario you are looking at 2 or 3 overcards and in the worst you are dominated. You could easily be beating UTG+1 but at best it looks like a coinflip with UTG. If you are confident that you can outplay the others 3 or 4 handed then just fold and wait for a better day.

Okay, let's say you have your reads/tells down and you know the other guy's gonna call all-in.

Fold. You'll likely move up a spot without doing anything. $250 may be nothing to iggy but it may mean more to you. And so what if one of them doubles up? Compare that to jumping in, finding out one of them holds an overpair or AK and pairs one of them on the board while the board misses you? And then you gain nothing other than the 5th place money you already had locked up. However, doing nothing stands a good chance of gaining you something. Call that a bad EV decision all you want. I'd fold and let them nuke each other.

However, even without that, think about what kind of a hand YOU would push on. Probably a murder hand like pocket kings. That's probably along the lines of what the all-in raiser is holding. Overcards that pair with the board or any pocket overpairs have you cooked unless you get another jack, and even then, if they're holding a pocket overpair and the board gives THEM a set, they still pwn you. Can't blame you for hating pocket jacks. Fold even if there's a chance the guy after you will fold and give big spender the pot.

Doesnt really come into play unless you're dirt poor.

If we're talking about $250k versus $3m then it's maybe understandable.


$250 isnt life changing for anyone. It's just as 'important' as the next $250, for all intents and purposes.

I think that there are way too many hands that could be pushing all in here that we are ahead of for us to fold. Also, the payout structure is way to top heavy for us to fold. I think more often than not we're going to be up against two overcards and an underpair here, which gives us pretty darn good odds to triple up. All the EV in these tournaments lies in getting first place. I don't see too many better spots that you'll be in to amass a large chip lead.

if they are thinking players, it's an easy shove.

If they are really tight and stupid (like betting 12k with <20k left and 3/6k blinds), it makes it closer.

THinking players are shoving quite a few hands in this spot

Quoted the whole post so I can respond to the bolded sections separately.

(1) First off, the absolute dollar amounts mean nothing here. Multiply them all by 10 and I give the same advice. The point is that the difference between 3rd and 4th relative to the difference between 2nd and 3rd is negligible. As such, you need to be aggressive at this stage of the tournament. I wasn't saying "oh, I'm a baller and I only care about first", I was pointing out that 2nd place is the key spot you should be worried about given the payout structure.

(2) As for the second part, no, not even close. The all-in player here has three big blinds left. Three. He's in a desperate situation here, and should be pushing a very wide range of hands. I agree that there are some weak-tight donks out there that will make ridiculous folds, but a good player will be pushing a range of something like 22+, A7+, KJ+. Possibly much looser if he thinks that UTG is a good thinking player as well. UTG+1 is going to have to go all-in one of the next three hands regardless, so waiting for pocket kings would be suicide. Also, even if we do lose to the all-in player, we can still make money on the hand as long as we beat the original raiser in the sidepot.

(3) This last quote just annoys me because it's so stupid. There's so many things wrong with it that I don't know where to begin. First off, if we fold, it's pretty much impossible that the original raiser will fold for 600 chips more. So we can't be "giving big spender the pot". Also, "big spender"? Are you kidding me? The guy's got 3 big blinds left, and you're acting like it's a wild, reckless move to push all-in. It's his only move with any kind of reasonable hand.

The overall point is that when you get into a tournament with a terrible fast structure like this, making "safe folds" is not going to win you money. Making aggressive moves at the pot is. I played a live $100 tournament like this a few months ago because someone I knew who didn't play poker regularly wanted me to go with him. You know what happened? At the final table, I started going all-in with about half of my hands, while people with 2000 chips folded for 2/3 of their stack. I won a little under half of my confrontations and people couldn't believe how "lucky" I got as I cruised to a 4:1 chip lead when it finally got heads-up. If you're afraid of a 50/50 confrontation, you'll never be a good tournament poker player.

Ya Iggy...

Most of his posts have been similar to that...

Hard to argue against most of this.
So I won't.

Wow, Iggy, sorry for slapping your mother.

Points taken, and I'll just overlook the rest of the hostility from everyone this time, kthx

We're just trying to help. kthx

Hey, I know. I throw in my 2cents and I understand people may think my take crazy/stupid/wrong/etc, and often for good reason. Like poker, that's part of the game, and keeping an open mind is important. I do learn quite a bit from the responses.

10 points shall be awarded for your attitude.

Call