Specifically say you get T9 suited in the SB and there are 2 limpers already, with the BB obviously still left to act. Do you usualy advise folding, calling, or raising. Obviously each can be an option under certain situations, but what is usualy the best course of action when playing at a full table with unknown opponents.

This has started quite a debate at the full tilt forum and I don't think one of the guys is willing to listen to anyone but Daniel, but I would love to hear feeback from anyone else as well. I have been playing poker for about a year (or 2 if you count strictly play chips ), and look forward to participating in this forum in the future as it looks like a cool place with some good disctussions.

Now back to the question at hand. The main point of contention is between a guy arguing that the best option is limping since you are gretting great odds with a good drawing hand and another saying that is the worst option as you should never limp into any pot if your hand is good enought to play. The specific scenarion involves an average full table where you have little info on the players involved so it is hard to knowabout their tendencies and with what they might limp and call a raise coming from the sb, and no one has super short or large stacks. So in the long run will it be more profitable to raise here and then make a continuation bet on any flop or just complete the bb and see how the hand plays out from there? Which is the better approach in general?

I wouldn't fold most suited cards for half a small bet after two limpers, let alone a suited connector.

Calling > Raising though IMO, because you'll be out of position for the entire hand.

(remember ISANL, and play limit)

Neither answer is wrong really...except folding. It depends on your style of play and if you are a good post flop player. The more money in the pot the harder it will be for somebody to get away from the 2nd best hand if our hand hits, and if nobody hits their hand it will easier to take it down when you lead out after the flop. I myself would raise and take control of the hand...but there is abolutely nothing wrong with just calling and see how the flop develops.

Question for Daniel...

I can't read all the rest.


another saying that is the worst option as you should never limp into any pot if your hand is good enought to play.

that guy is wrong. Really Really wrong.

Generally, just completing is your best play there, much to do with your position, or lack of.

Lol. That is awesome advice.

BTW - Limping (completing) is the best play. It's not even close.

Thanks for the replies guys, btw is there any chance this will actually come to Daniel's attention and that he would post a reply?

Now to be fair to the guy advocating the raise what he really said in several post is:
"Actually calling is the worst move avilable here." and "If you are not going to play it for a raise then you should probably fold it." and
"I would have bet out pre flop because it is a good strategic move and I prefer to play strategically rather than just looking for luck."

Please keep the response coming as there is alrady someone here that thinks raising is the best options, though he is being much more reasonable about it and his explanation for it. I still disagree with that as a general approach though as you are going to be out of posistion and still likely to get 2 callers (if not reraised) at the stakes most of us play online. So at a full table where you don't really have a read on the field I do not see this as beeing a winning long term strategy since you can't trully put your oppnents on a specific hand and all you know is that you are behind 2 people if you get called. Therefore you either still need to hit the flop hard and hope they have a hand they can pay with, which is a goal much more cheaply acomlished by limping, or you are commited to bluffing against a couple of players that have now shown some strength, and you have no idea just how bluffable they are.

Question For Daniel, How do you play suited connectors?

I'd say that he plays them pretty well.

There's a chance that he'll see this and reply, but not while he's in a hand in the tournament.

As he said here, he just wrote an article about playing suited connectors:

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...t&p=1619747

The article is here:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports...er/4450980.html

Question has been answered.

lol.... 2000 lloooll

Thanks, Dane. Just what I was looking for. Seems like sound advice but not sure if the guy will listen as it only deals with very simillar situations and not the exact specifics of looking nown at it in the sb with 2 people already liping in before you decide to raise it up and see what happenes lol. Again as Daniels says, playing them from ep and aggressively may be fine once in a while to keep yourself unpredictable, but as a general strategy for every time you run into similar situations it just seems like asking for trouble.

Btw, in the specific hand the guy ended up being against JJ and AK of the same suit... The actualy player playing teh hand was chasteized for liping when the flop came J87 giving him the nut str8 with an openeded str8 flush draw Of course he was still only 50/50 at that point and all the money ended up going in from all 3 players by the turn with them actually splitting the pot when the board finally read JT987 Now that is one crazy hand, but I don't see how raising preflop would have aomplised anything except perhaps force out the T9 preflop.

SB - Limp

Button or CO (still with the 2 limpers) - I raise often, and more then usual. Your only really worried about the bb waking up with a monter or the first limper. The others had a chance to raise and they didn't. You might get a floater but just C-bet it. Works enough to be worth it, especially when you hit a monster.

Position. Position. Position.

People who repeat this type of advice ad nauseum heard a pro say this sometime somewhere, but don't have a clue as to the context under which the advice came. These are the same people who blindly repeat that you should never bet into a dry sidepot, and that you should always check down against an all-in, and that you should always fold KK preflop in satellites....stop mimicking stuff you heard in an article somewhere and actually start thinking about where that advice is valid and where it is not.


Generally, you should never/rarely OPEN limp into any pot if your hand is good enough to play.

Asking Daniel for his response may not be exactly what you are looking for seeing as his style is very hard to play for beginners.

If you are a conservative player, calling this in the SB is the best option. You wouldn't want to raise because if the flop comes A J 3 rainbow, what next? Limp in, and if you get the straight or flush draw, play from there. If you miss, fold.

Somebody with a more agressive style like Daniel would probably raise because their post flop play is extraordinary.

I don't know, but I would honestly like to find out. Judging from the article in the links provided by Great Dane, he would obiously raise it up some of the time, but seems to advocate a more cautious approach in most case, but perhaps that is just advice for bigginers. I am just curious how he would play it online if people didn't know who he was (so his reputtation does not influance the calls), against a full table of unknown opponents. Would he find it more profitable to mostly complete the bb or raise it up alomst every time he looks down to see mid suited connectors in this spot?

with super deep stacks this is generally true. but it only applies if you are the first one in. to see three limpers and raise from the SB w/ AJs is suicide.

You have to remember, 10 9 suited is really nothing unless you hit it. Yes, you have higher odds of hitting something, but it is still nothing.

I like suited connectors for their surprise factor. It's hard to peg somebody on a hand like that. If you hit something, you can usually exploit that. If you don't, you can still get out without losing your stack. Save those chips for AK suited. That's a different story.

In a full ring cash game where no one has raised, I will almost never fold my SB. Unless I'm on a low money your dang near always getting odds to complete the blind????!!!!!!????

Reminds me of a story. Once playing 1/2 live and getting crap cards. I told the dealer that I was going to fold my BB if I didn't have a face card (i was full of it, just playing very tight and didn't want the table to catch wind). I get dealt 72o and no one raises so I fold instead of checking. 6 or 7 people see the flop A72 and EP bets out and everyone folds. I knew the guy and asked him if 72o would have been good. He said he had A7s. I would have lost my whole short stack.

No real moral, just entertaining?????

I prefer suited connectors in late position when there are a number of players who have called ahead of you.

no kidding.

Do you prefer a Full House to a Straight as well?

While this is true you need to be very careful post flop that you don't get yourself into a situation where you have poor visibility as to your chances and face horrible reverse implied odds. If you're playing ATC from the SB you're pretty much looking for 2 pair or better to continue. If your Q6 makes top pair proceed very cautiously.