Today I did something that I will hopefully never do again, yet I still keep doing it every time I get money-hungry... playing out of my bankroll. I've been building it, and doing very well, from the .10/.25 and .25/.50 tables for the last month, but today there was an opening at the loosest .50/1.00 table I'd ever seen, so I took it. Take this hand as a lesson as to why you should never do that. Regardless of the results of this hand, I was putting a month's worth of winnings on the line on just one hand. And if I lose this hand just once, I'd be broke. So, anyway, here's the hand.



PokerStars No Limit Hold'em ($0.50/$1.00)

Seat 1: ($45.85 in chips)
Seat 2: Villan (BUTTON) ($120.55 in chips)
Seat 3: SB ($58.75 in chips)
Seat 4: cheetaking ($100 in chips)
Seat 5: ($56.50 in chips)
Seat 6: ($35.50 in chips)
Seat 7: ($91.70 in chips)
Seat 8: ($121.15 in chips)
Seat 9: ($68.90 in chips)

This was my very first hand at this juicy table, so I had no reads on anybody. All I can guess about Villain is that he's a winning tight grinder, based on his chip stack size. But I have no data at all to back this up. (man, I need PokerTracker...)


SB posts small blind [$0.50]
cheetaking posts big blind [$1]

*** PRE-FLOP ***
Dealt to cheetaking [8 J ]

UTG calls [$1]
UTG+1 calls [$1]
UTG+2 calls [$1]
UTG+3 calls [$1]

(2 Folds)

Villain (Button) calls [$1]
SB calls [$0.50
cheetaking checks

With a hand like J/8, I have no intent of trying to buy this pot. I'm fully content with checking and trying to get very lucky on the flop.

TOTAL POT: $7


*** FLOP *** [T 9 4 ]

Not a bad flop for me. Now I've got an open-ended straight draw, and the board is a rainbow so nobody can have a flush draw. Since I'm in early position, I figure it's probably best to keep the pot small and try to see the turn cheaply, so I check.

SB checks
cheetaking checks
UTG checks
UTG+1 checks
UTG+2 bets [$2]
UTG+3 calls [$2]
Villain calls [$2]
SB folds

The $2 bet into the $13 pot obviously gives me the odds to call.

cheetaking: calls [$2]
UTG folds
UTG+1 folds

Wow, what a loose table... it's the turn, and there are still 4 players in the hand. Now I've just got to hit the straight, and I get to trap the hell out of somebody, right?

TOTAL POT: $15


*** TURN *** T 9 4 [Q ]

Yes! I got it! I decide to bet out, since a check/raise would make it much more obvious that I hit the straight. About half the pot seems right... just enough to get 2 pair or a set to call me.

cheetaking: bets $7.50

UTG+2 folds
UTG+3 folds
Villain raises $10.00 to $17.50

Hmm... interesting. A small re-raise seems like a value bet to me, so I'm guessing that he either just hit top 2 pair or was slow-playing a set. Not sure since it's my first hand at the table, but I decide to put some pressure on him so that I can win the hand without having to worry about the board pairing on the river, or force him to make a bad call with a worse hand. Again, i wish I knew what kind of a player he is, but I'm still just stabbing in the dark.

cheetaking: raises $20.00 to $37.50

Villain raises $80.05 to $117.55 and is all-in

cheetaking ?

Now i've got a decision. He flat called on the draw-heavy flop with tremendous pot-odds, and I know nothing about how much of a risk-taker he is, so I can't rule out that he called the flop with King/Jack and now has the nut straight. His monstorous 4-bet seems way too strong to be made by 2-pair, and even a set would be borderline. I've got the second best hand possible, and am facing a bet for all of my chips from a player I know nothing about. What should I do? And not only is this call worth a loss or a win, it is worth all but $15 of my bankroll, because like an idiot I decided to jump into this game which is 2 levels above my playing limits. What to do?

You don't fold here getting 2.5 to 1. Nh and good analysis.

You have a good hand. He could have been slow playing, or just caught, two pair or a set, and is trying to protect against the unmade draws.

I would have to call here, if he has KJ........ that's poker!

I see this alot, and it always confuses me.

What is our criteria for determining what odds are correct to call in these cases? Do we just accept anything better than 2:1 on our made straights/flushes? What about two pair, sets, trips, etc, same, 2:1 is good enough for a call?

You should have a rough idea in your mind of what our equity is likely to be against villain's range. This looks like KJ yes, but we only need 29% equity to break even. I'm sure this is a split pot or an overplayed 2 pair or set enough times to give us >30% equity.

If we were getting less than about 1.8:1 I would be more willing to lay this down.

Fold.

1. .5/$1 is my normal level to play at, I have enough buyins, and I probably could've gotten away from it.

2. Even if you're ahead, you're opponent is very likely not drawing dead.

3. A 78, even suited diamonds, is not there yet, and is not a favorite to make it, and thus would not motivate the push.

4. Minraises or near-minraises (as you noted) are bluffs or nuts-value-bets 90% of the time. You reraised and got pushed at...so you got your answer.

5. You're risking your entire bankroll. You should take this into account even if you would make this call 100% of the time at your normal levels.

Fold.

Also, prepare to be flamed by our big-bankrollers for considering $115 to be adequate for playing $50max NL.

Except we can't assume there's any potential to "break even in the LR" here because our entire bankroll is on the line.

In normal situations this is a call but with 90% of my BR on the line I guess you gotta fold. I dunno I have 30 buyins for 50NL and there are times I wish I had more. I'm definitely not moving up until I have 30 buyins for 100 NL. I've learned my lesson years ago. I haven't been broke since. This is atrocious BR management. If you have money to redeposit then call, you have the 2nd nuts.

this reminds me of the post a couple months ago, where the dude was given $2K by his dad to start professionally. he goes to a 10/20 table (or something, he has the entire $2K at risk) and immediately hits a SF draw on the flop, villain bets, HE RAISES (inexplicable), and villain dutifully goes all in. guy posts "what should I do?"

answer: don't put your entire bankroll in a place where you can get coolered for the entire amount and certainly don't raise in this particular position.

Anyway. Call it. Learn the lesson. Make the money back.

Ah, missed the 'whole BR on the line' part.

It depends how you define your bankroll. If you can redeposit then call. If not, fold.

I can't believe people are advocating a fold, here.

Hero is obviously willing to take the risk, so why not let him take it when he's in decent shape? You tracked this game down because it's a bad game. You turn a straight, and could very easily be up against QT, QJ, a set, or any number of weirdo hands (AdJd, etc) hoping to win it here, but with tons of outs.

I call all the time here. If you're unwilling to get your money in good, you CAN'T win... I mean, you pass up too many edges when you're only getting your money in as a 5-1 favorite or better to show a profit. So...

Wang

You call, I don't know how you define your BR or what your cash flow is like but it's only $100, if you lose that's life but at least you lived it, then re-load or go back to penny ante land.

RESULTS:

I called, barely thinking about it, because I was too blinded by the fact that I had hit a straight. I didn't even notice at the time that there was a potential better straight out there, so I eagerly tossed in my last $63 for the call without even stopping to ponder.

Villain revealed K/J for the nut straight, and just like that I had lost 90% of my bankroll. Since I only allow myself to add an additional 50 dollars per month, that means no more poker for me until my next paycheck.

The bad part is that this is the third time that something just like this has happened to me, and I still haven't learned.

The first time I took the premature step up, my flopped flush lost to a straight flush on the river. The second time, I flopped a straight and lost to a boat on the river after slow-playing it. And now I have lost 2nd nut straight to nut straight.

THE LESSON: Stay at your own limits. And now that I have 'learned' that (again), I'm going back to the .10/.25 tables where I belong until I have $200 in my bankroll for the .25/.50 and so on. I deserve a dunce cap for this... ;p

Just so you know, you ARE aware that you're playing WAAAY out of your roll even at those limits, right? I mean, you should probably have like 4-500 bucks just playing 25 max NL I don't want to be one of the bankroll nits, but it's a lot easier/less stressful to play if you can drop a few buyins and still be in good shape. It's very hard to win money if you have to play in such a fashion that you can't lose.

yeah, I do have a huge problem with winnings patience. I have problems playing at any limit below .10/.25, regardless of my bankroll size, because the results don't come in fast enough and I get tired of the slow, steady climb. I know this is a huge problem, but I can't seem to stop. And this is probably why I keep losing.

My pattern is basically buy-in for 50 dollars, play great poker for several weeks and get it up to 250 or so, and then either prematurely step up limits or start playing too maniacally and lose it all in 2 days. I can't keep a cap on it, and no matter how hard I try, the impatient side of me which wants huge results instantly keeps getting the best of my common sense.

Did anyone else have a problem like that? If so, how did you get over it?

I never had that problem. But you should either not play poker very seriously, or you should get real good. Cause that's trouble, kid

I thought u had jumped to 200NL?

You may be more of a 'gambler' than you think. I do the same thing but it's with Omaha. I work my BR up in NL where I'm a marginal winner and then I blow it like something awful in PLO. Now I think it's because I have a gambling streak in me, and I equate PLO far more with gambling than I do NL. I play NL so methodically and analytically that it's a nice relief to play a game where no hand dominates another preflop. The only gambling I really do in NL is pushing 12/15 outers on the flop. Of course switching games like this is a bad idea because of PLO's variance; it's not long before I lose some coinflips and take some beats and, surprise, I'm forced to drop down in NL again.

Now if you know you really aren't a gambler, and you don't care so much about taking shots or whatever, deposit more money and play higher limits. The money's obviously not meaningful enough to you. You're getting bored playing for pennies. This is fine; it happens to almost everyone. I was grinding out $10 NL on FT as a 4 bb/100 winner until I got bored out of my skull, so I switched sites, deposited $600, got rakeback, and moved up to $25 NL. If you can do so, deposit a couple thousand dollars and play $50 NL. If that's unreasonable then deposit at least $500 and play $25 NL. This way you'll care about your earnings - they won't just come in terms of ptbb/100 but in real dollars that actually appear relevant. When you win a $15 pot at $10 NL it's like, wow, that's a huge pot...but it's still only fifteen freakin' dollars.

And at higher limits you'll need to do more than nut peddle and play your cards; your mind will definitely be more in the game.

Uhhhh...*stands up*My name is Ray and I like to play above my bankroll.

In my first 2 months playing like 2 years ago, I built a roll up to $2k playing: .05/.1 til I got to 200, .1/.25 til I got to $400, .25/.5 til I got to $800, .5/1 til I got to 2k.....THEN, I decided I wanted to play 10/20 LHE, which I really had no idea how to play. Won a couple of huge pots, then went on to lose $1700 in a night. I almost threw up, and somehow I found myself down to $13 in my BR. I spent a week at the micro-stakes, and was back to the races. This has happened at least twice since then. Most recently I thought I'd try 2/3 6-max on Bodog and dropped 1k because I was playing out of my comfort level.

Lesson: Yeah, it's a great deal more exciting to play higher and win "huge" pots, but the most difficult part is handling the loss of a "huge" pot because at your previous levels it may have been 3 buy-ins.

As for the BR management, check this out: Bankroll size

I did. Then I decided to become a winning player.

Search Bankroll Management.

Learn it, live it, love it.

can you say a royal asswhoopin?

or how about -3K in 5 days?

it sucked i'm just getting back to comfort

Phew... glad there are others out there. For a minute I thought everyone was going to say "you're a complusive gambler, you need therapy, quit the game." So thanks for the BR notes, and I'll try to learn that. Until I've learned restraint, though, I think I'm just going to swith to tournament play, the only game which I consistently crush, and can't lose a bankroll in one night at. Then. maybe once I've learned small-ball strategy and BR management, I'll go back the the cash tables... anyway, thanks for the replies everyone.