You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you.

The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?

Bet 50% of the pot. Insta-call when he donk-pushes.
He thinks we were stealing and calls our raise pf with just about anything.
He caught a little piece, and thinks a raise here will blow us out of the hand.

Knowing stack sizes would help. I think the best play changes depending on how deep we are.

He is unlikely to be on a draw, so this is a situation where we are WA/WB. His has given us very little information thus far, but we are likely to be ahead. He could easily have called the flop with air . If we are shallow stacked, a c/r or c/c allin would be a good play. Deeper stacks and I generally prefer betting 33% of the pot again.

I say check. The opponent is a grinder, and showed interest by calling, so he's probably calling another bet on the turn and we don't really know if we're ahead or not. I say check. If he fires back, drop it, if he checks behind you then he was probably calling with a mid-pair, and you can check/call the river. If he makes a bet on the turn, I think you can honestly be worried enough about K/Q and A/K to fold since he's the grinder. Betting the turn will only win the pot if he had a mid pair, which you would win anyway by backing off, and then you're wasting another big bet if he does indeed have you out-kicked. I say check.

If he pushes, he'll have us beat. No need to go broke from being a chip leader holding just top pair.

Grinder

Also known as: Rounder.

A grinder is the same as a rounder. These tend to be semi-professional players that make most of their money playing poker, though they do not make much money. A grinder plays in a similar fashion as a rock. Often, these players can beat lower and mid-stakes games but can not beat or make much money at the higher stakes games.

Also, Michael "The Grinder" Mizrachi:





I believe Daniel is referring to the latter.

Daniel said, "The Grinder." I'm sure that he was referring to M. Mizrachi.

Yeah. He is. I was just highlighting how cheetaking's confusion arose.

Oh... okay. I didn't get that part.

I still say check, though. He's a fellow small-baller, so we can't be sure enough of what he has in order to risk lots of chips with just a jack kicker on top pair. Once he calls on the flop, I'm probably just hoping to check it down. But since it's Mike, another smallish bet of 1/3 of the pot seems like a good option too, since the flop call could easily just be an information call. But since he has position on us, we've got to be careful.

Call me Nutz but I shove here. It's the Grinder and I believe he will come over the top at any bet or sign of weakness. If you check he will most surely bet and you'll be more lost than ever in the hand.

Doubt he has K-Q, and if he has A-K he most likely would have re-raised pre. He's got big pair? or A-Q? maybe 4-5 ? How many hands can beat me here and what are the chances he has one of them and is he playing like he has one of them? I don't think so.

If he's huge then so be it...and G G me, but it looks like he's fishing/testing.

I'd push and take a shot at ending this hand right here.

Okay. You're nutz.

I agree with most of your answer except for the push. Of course, I've got a little bit of experience playing him. I would make a 1/2 pot bet and play it from there. Betting the flop and checking the turn is a sign of weakness. With the flop and turn bets, he may lay down his hand sensing a stronger one. If he's got us beat, in this case, we should be able to figure it out and fold. Of course, a check raise might be a good choice and, if he calls or pushes, we can decide to fold.

11 1/2 months ago, when I played him, I raised preflop with AJ. On a J x x flop, I bet 1/2 the pot, he raised, I reraised, he laid it down. Later, when he knocked me out, I raised preflop with JJ, he reraised, I pushed. He went into the tank for a few minutes and called me with QQ to knock me out in 17th. I hoped for a coinflip, if he had AK, and I would have won it because the board was 9 high when it was dealt.

Grinder likes to push people around when he can, but he had the goods this time and I should have laid down the JJ preflop and waited for a better opportunity to see a cheap flop.

Some of you dudes are way off ??????????????????????????????????????????

I think it's close between checking and betting 50% of the pot. Our flop bet is so weak that I think he calls with any hand he has. The Grinder will make the call to try and slow us down if we missed so that he might be able to pick it up on the turn. Since the turn makes the board fully rainbow, I think the best choice would end up being check, because I doubt The Grinder is coming over the top of a 50% pot bet that often without a hand that beats us. We are out of position against a great player who also has a large stack, so I think this is a very risky situation, which suggests we should play it carefully the whole way through, that's why I picked check.

The reason I think he won't be so quick to pounce on a 50% pot bet on the turn is that with the WPT final table structure he would probably be commiting most or all of his chips if he makes the raise, despite the fact that you guys are two of the biggest stacks.

I think the bigger question for me is what to do after we check, what's our line? If he checks behind we are going to want to value bet the 50% of the pot on the river I would assume. But what happens when we check and he bets 50% of the pot? Are we raising? Raising puts us in a pretty tough spot if we're beat, since we would have commited a lot of chips with this line. I guess we'd be check/calling the turn and then doing god knows what on the river...

If we check, he bets 50% of the pot, and we call, do we donk-value bet the river? Or just check/call again?

We should be betting a third of the pot on the turn/

As we were the aggressor pre-flop, the Grinder can naturally assume that we're making a continuation bet regardless of the flop. Only betting a 1/3 of the pot gives him good odds to call, and he has a chance to steal the pot later if we show weakness.

I believe we are ahead as the only hands he could be playing that beat us at the moment are A/K and K/Q and he probably would have reraised preflop if he was holding either of these, while being in position there is a good chance he could flat call a less strong starting hand such as K 10 or K 9

Him just calling our flop bet is very suspect. If he was holding a K he would probably come over the top for a re raise, so I beleive as our bet was so small, that he is either very strong or weak, most likely the latter.

Our main concern for a 1/3rd of the pot bet is him coming over the top of us for a reraise, as I believe the only reason he is still in this hand is to try and steal the pot from us on the turn or river. I think we should flat call any resistance and that should be enough to scare him off from outplaying us on the river. We don't want to get too involved if he does actually have us beat.

Betting half the pot will probably cause him to fold as we are making it tough for him to come over the top of us and calling doesn't give him enough of an opportunity to take the pot down on the river with a weak hand

Checking the turn is similair to the 1/3rd pot bet as he may very well bet into us giving us a chance to reraise, but us checking the turn is probably scary to The Grinder as betting is going to be our play for 90% of the hands we might be holding. We shouldn't get too fancy with our hand.

Check! You are Daniel Negreanu, why would you go bust with a weak hand like KJ when you are one of the chip leaders at the FT?

Grinder isn't going to bluff off his chips here either.

Check check is the most likely turn play, then we'll see what to do on the river if we catch a J.

Final Table is the key you guys are missing here.

Trying to think of the possible hands we could put him on here, I'd say it's fair to say that the grinder probably wouldn't just call from the button with K4, K2, or K8. Since from the button he would also probably re-raise with AK to weed out the SB and BB, we can eliminate AK as well. AA and KK are possibilities since he could have been trapping, and there was nothing too scary on the flop to halt that strategy. 88 isn't much of a possibility either, since it's probable that he would have played that on the flop. 44 or 22 are the other hands he could have since they would not have been bad calls on a LP raiser.

Either way, his smooth calling pre-flop and on the flop are warning signs that something is fishy here. He either hit trips or has rolled Aces over our Kings. Betting here will surely result in a re-raise from The Grinder and the only way to win the hand at this point would be to re-raise and hope he's stealing with rags, which of course is unlikely. Furthermore, since we raised pre-flop and the flop doesn't even have a flush draw on it, it's safe to say that The Grinder realizes we are betting Kings.

Easy check/fold here.

Antoni, the Grinder will call our bet on this flop with a huge range which includes A4, 54, any pocket pair, plus KQ or a set. Check/folding is far too weak. If we check, it is to get more value from his range.

Well....this may be long-winded, but I'm thinking out loud here, and I'm going to type as I think. (kind of an experiment for me)

Mr. M knows you are fully capable of making a continuation bet here.

His smooth call could indicate extreme strength...or it could simply mean he wants to keep you honest - his call SHOULD have the same effect as a raise - it will tell him whether or not you have a hand on the turn...he may have something like 77, 88, 99 and think he's good...


He could have something like A4, and think he could be good.

I think Grinder could easily call preflop with AK/KQ/KT/K9 here...along with a lot of pairs up to 99 - I'm going to assume he reraises with TT or higher, but that's not a given either.

To my knowledge, Grinder is tighter when facing a preflop raise, though, at the same time, he knows the raise came from late position. This is more true if we are DN here, who ain't exactly the Rock of Gibraltar, but it's just as true if he's playing against me (and I'm assuming the guy raising with KJ is me, not DN).


I think he could smooth call your flop bet with many of those hands, whether he has top pair better kicker, top pair worse kicker, a medium pair, or a set. Unless you got cute with 53 preflop, he's likely to believe he's way ahead...



I personally think that if you are willing to go all-in, then check, and see if he will bet for you. Otherwise, there is ZERO reason to bet all-in. There are no real draws to worry about, and if you are winning then you are likely dodging either 2, 3 or 5 outs. He is not going to call an all-in with a hand that you beat...and he is not going to fold a hand that beats you (except perhaps KQ).

If you are willing to bet half or a third of the pot, I still think a check "could" be good to see if he'll bet for you - again, you're not worried about draws. If you ARE ahead, and you bet the turn, he'll likely believe you have the king and fold any hand that is behind....your only hope would be that he would want to showdown with KT...that might be the most difficult hand for him to fold. If he calls or raises, you are likely beat - if he has 99 he'd have to put you on a total bluff, or 77, to think he's winning (the advantage to the small turn bet is it is a cheap way to find out where you are, and lets you manage the pot size).

The challenge arises when you check and he bets the pot or 3/4 of the pot, where you could have got your information for 1/2 the pot.

Will he see a 1/3 pot-sized bet on the turn as weak, or suspicious?


And, at this point, you need to pick up some physical tells.


The problem with checking is, if he puts in a 1/3 or 1/2 pot-sized bet, you don't know if he's betting for value with KT or 99, or with KQ or 88. But, as I stated earlier, if you were willing to put in that bet anyway, it may be better to check and see if he bets - you may get more value out of it, and you're not too worried about draws. Unless he's really frisky, I can't see him calling a raise with too many worse hands, but he could open with some worse hands, not necessarily to bluff, but to either get some value, or to simply shut down any possible draws (let's say he has 99....he'd bet 'cause he thinks he's a ahead and he hates any over card on the river).


Check.
Closely followed by 1/3 pot-sized bet.
Then 1/2 pot bet.

All in plain sucks.

Ok, he called our raise pre-flop. He called out bet post flop. This is the final table at a WPT event, even if it wasn't the Grinder at this level he is either slow playing, chasing, or looking for a chance to steal. All I'm certain of is he doesn't have a lone king as he would have to try and take the pot on the flop or fold. We need a bet that will let us know if he has the set/2 pr with out us going broke.

If he is slow playing we want to get out of his way with minimum damage, if he is chasing or stealing we want him to lay it down.

All in is out of the question. If you seriously consider this option, please pm all of your player handles.

Check, if he has a made hand or he is drawing he checks behind us. So this doesn't allow us to identify his hand. Also it is asking him to try and steal. If he trys a weak steal we might be able to reraise, but if he bets twice the pot, I'm not going over the top w/ Top pair.

33% of the pot. The Grinder could view this as an attempt to continue a steal, inviting him to re-raise. Also if he is drawing to a straight he getting the right odds to call.

50% of the pot. Now he is priced out if he is drawing to a straight. We are showing agression by increasing our raise. He doesn't know if we have top pair, are stealing or have a set, but it is going to be difficult for him to call if he doesn't have at least top pair. If he calls or goes over the top, he probably has us beat and we will have to check/fold on the river.

Well, looking at the options again.

All-in: Risking the first or second chip lead with 5 left on a top pair mid kicker. This is extreme over-betting and you can get the same information from the 30% or 50% bets.

30% Bet: Too small, it's possible but unlikely that he played 35 suited and might call this small bet.

50% Bet: This may be what he was looking for. If he calls or raises we are still stranded in this hand. If he calls the 50% can we honestly bet out on the river again? If he raises it's a simple choice really, so why bet at all?

I think it's fairly obvious we are dead in the water here, so why lose any more chips? Live to see another day imo.

Ok, he isn't likely to smooth call both preflop and the flop with a hand like KQ or AK, so I think we can strongly weight against those in his range. His most likely hand is a pocket pair, and the only pairs we are really worried about are 44, 22 and 88.

Check/folding is far too weak a line to take in this hand.

You are correct that we are probably beat, and if you are certain you are beat here then you can make the case for check/folding, but I think that is WAY to weak of a table image for a final WPT table. My opion is even if you are 90% certian you are beat you have to bet here and the smallest bet that makes sense is 50% of the pot, as anything less and the 35 draw is correct to call.

I would put in a bet for half the pot, if he raises you you can give him credit for a set. Its unlikely that he has AK otherwise he wouldve showed some strength by now. If you check, he'll more then likely bet and you have to fold, of you put in a bet about half the pot he'll fold if he was messing around with 5-3-x

check, then raise his bluff.
If he flopped a set, not much you can do. If the stacks aren't overly deep 5 handed this is a hand I'd be fine getting it all in with on the turn. Being an aggresive played he'd likely reraise AK preflop and the chances of him having K7-10 are greater than the single holding of KQ. If he checks behind, possibly bet half the pot on the river unless an ace comes. Checking the river and trying to induce a bluff isn't too bad either if you know the Grinder to be aggressive.

Most obvious check ever in any deep stacked situation, not just at the final table. He'll probably make some kind of bet on the turn with ANY hand he would've called with on the flop, so you'll have to consider calling the turn, depending on stack sizes, how much he bets, and your read on him, and then go from there.

And planning to checkraise here is almost as bad as betting. Its a clear check and then either call or fold scenario. There's no reason to try and build an unnecessarily big pot with top pair jack kicker at the final table against the other big stack. Same on the river, unless its a J.

I think that this is a difficult situation and the question is made tougher by us not knowing stack sizes or the blinds. The flat call on the flop could be a set, any middle pair, or just The Grinder playing his position.

I think that AK is unlikely, as he probably would've raised preflop against DN's raise to ensure that the blinds folded. KQ is a possibility, but I think that KQ would put in a raise on the flop to better define the hand.

The 1/3 pot bet on the flop was cheap enough that his range is still rather large.

Since we have a fairly strong hand and are really only legitimately worried about a few hands that are currently beating us (KQ, 22, 44, 88) I would advocate checking here. I'd feel even more strongly about this if the stacks are really deep. Since we're not really that worried about giving him a free card, our check conceals the strength of our hand a little bit and gives us a chance to hopefully learn a little more about his. The deep stacks would allow us to check call or even check raise him if it looks like the best play.

Another continuation bet here puts us in a very bad position if he raises because we still have to figure out where he's at and we're most likely going to fold.

With deep stacks, I think the correct play is to check and see what develops.

-Check, you want to keep the pot small with top pair, specially against a large stack that could jeopardize your tournament life, its better wait to play bigger pots against the other smaller stacks on the table to knock them out,
You can just call a bet on the turn and probably make a value bet on the river if a blank comes controling the size of the pot.

grinder obv has 42s, his fav hand. k/f

This is the worst take I have seen. NL is all about trapping and chopping, check raising in this situation is about digging holes for your opponents and then walking into them. Top pair should be the best hand here, but you need to get away from it if it is not. If he raises what 1/2 the pot or more, you are going to have to come over the top of that. Doubling or trippling the size of the pot and the size of your mistake. If he checks behind me I'm even more worried that he has a set and is hoping I will take a stab at the river.

This is the first decent reason to check here. For me since I don't get to play many final tables on the WPT it is all about what people do in these situations. It seems that there is alot of naked aggression at the final tables and you really don't want to get in a situation where you are opening the door to let someone take a stab at your pot. I've been at small tournament final tables that would let you get by with checking it down from here, but he could still be on a draw or an underpair. I don't think we want those hands getting a free card. If we bet and get called we have more information than if we check and he raises, so that is still my vote. Bet enough to punish the draw 50% of the pot.

I would think HIS most likely hands are baby cards: 44, 22, 53, 56 something like that. Bet 50% of the pot on the turn and see what he does....

Daniel i'm not sure who you were saying was "way off" so i guess i'll just be honest and say what i think and hope i don't get made fun of... and if i do hopefully i'll learn something...

As a top pro I would assume the Grinder would call a raise from a nobody like me on the button hoping to out play me after the flop with a variety of hands. The flop bet of 1/3rd the pot is in the probe bet range and he could have called planning on stealing the pot if I let up at all or if he made his hand on the turn. While it is possible he concealed a very big hand like AA or AK i believe he would reraise more often than not pre flop.

An article I was reading a while back from Erick Lindgren suggested checking the turn in some situations when you are the preflop aggresor in position against an aggresive opponent. In Erick's article he said the value you give up by letting your opponent draw to 5 or less outs is more than compensated for when he thinks your turn check was a sign of weakness and tries to take the pot on the river with a half to pot sized bet.

I think this concept can be applied for this hand but with a twist. Instead of checking the turn in position, you're checking out of position... which sucks but bear with me. You know The Grinder is going to bet 50%- the pot when you check to take it from you, which may have been his plan the entire time with no part of the flop... So my play would be to put in a minimum check raise. I believe this is the best play because I'm pretty sure i'm ahead and by checking and inducing his bluff i'm adding huge value to a pot i may have won with a half pot bet on the turn.

As my first time at a major final table i would be doing everything in my power to win. Against a top pro like The Grinder i'm going to have to guess sometime to win, and by making this play now I think he'd be a little more wary of entering a pot i raised in the future. Even at the final table the top pros want to play small ball if the blinds allow it and grind you down (no pun intended). By standing up to him on this hand in which i am very likely ahead based on the reasoning of previous posts (AA or AK on the button would usually raise, the only hands to worry about are 22,44,88, or QK) I am sending him a message to focus on the other 4 players and to stay out of my way until we're heads up.

Am I on the right track?

Phil

I got the Grinder pegged for 53... and my killer read says they're both clubs. Anyone disagree? Don't check and give him a free card to his 8 outer. Bet half the pot to make him overpay for his draw. Laugh when he pairs his 3 on the river and agonizes over a call.

Well, its a very diffuse Q. Firstly I don't know stack size, how much the raise and Bet size

So actually you want us to guess.. hehe

He has not AK, would have raised with KQ on flop. he may have set or AA, or under pair like 88 or 99.. 1010 maybe.

any way, we need info. 50% of the pot if that's not to much of our chip size.

I think Daniel has this one under control if he played it real, but i would not have gone all in.. Maybe check if i could put him on KQ..

I don't what i would have done live, in this situation, but i _THINK_ i would have bet out. But I'm willing to fold. we are easily beat...

i think you should check. there was no draw on the flop so k-j is either way in front or way behind. also i think its unlikely a good player like the grinder would call a bet on 3rd, 4th and 5th street with a hand worse than k-j. for that reason i dont think theres any point in betting.

if i check he might bet a hand like a smaller pair than the king or ace high thinking its good. i would plan to call on the turn and check on the river. or if he checked on 4th street i would make a small bet on the river.

5c3c!!! obv...

But calling on flop is prob just to see what WE will do on flop, and maybe if he has a "bluff-draw".

And ok, you check, he bets you call, on river you check, he goes all in, what then?? can you call?

No.

When you bet on turn, you get info, Call he has us, raise he really has us, fold we got the pot..

Thats how i see it..

First, i would have bet atleast 1/2 pot on the flop .As played I bet 1/2 of the pot b/c you want to play a medium sized pot with your TPGK, if he raises, i'll probably fold. I like betting here because he could be "floating here" or be bluffing with an unimproved pocket pair like 55 or 66 here.

Check. We are OOP and our hand is only semi-strong. We want to keep the pot small, and a bet will only fold worse hands.

Check to him and let him push . Then insta call

You guys are all way off..

The best play is to open fold. The only hand he can have is the nuts KK. Open folding will let him know that we have a perfect read on his play and give us a huge psychological edge on future hands.

Just so you all know Mizrachi said in an interview I saw that "the grinder" is basically his cash game persona. I dont know if you've ever saw him wearing a shirt or hat that says "Im a Machine" but he says that better describes his tournament style of play. Anyway back to the question I would fire out about half the pot again I think we are ahead in this situation more often than were behind.


"Hey who's the new kid?"

Id bet 1/3...

- I dont want him to chase, but its better then trapping myself
- He doesnt want to come over the top with a bad bluff, so if he does i think hes got a hand
- I get to keep the pressure on and if he has a middle pair hes probably going to fold

Im not going to check and leave myself open to the big bluff... if I check hes either coming back witha big raise or checking cuz hes on the draw... i dont want either

Test the waters with a 1/3 bet, keep the pressure up without risking too much

I think hes got pocket 10s right now.

Of course, maybe this is why im still struggling at the nickel tables ....

The Grinder will bet if you check.

If he is ahead, checking is better than betting because you will lose less since he can't raise you.

If he has nothing, checking is better than betting because you will induce a bluff since the flop is the sort of flop that is good for calling with nothing planning to bluff on a future street against an opponent who makes a lot of continuation bets.

If he has a little something, checking is better than betting because he will probably call you but not raise you if you bet (he might even fold a hand like 99) and bet if you check, so you aren't missing a bet.

The only time that you might not like checking is if he has a draw like 65. Of course, if you bet, he might semibluff and raise after picking up the double-gutter and potentially put you in a tough spot.

There is TOO MUCH MISSING information:

How much the initital raise was in comparision to stack size (i.e. raise 10k of 2 mil or 20,000);
How many chips do you have in comparison to 1/3 of the pot ( pot = 10,000 or 10,000,000 compared to what stack size);
How has the Grinder been playing;

If we are to assume equal stacks of about 1/10 the pot,

MY RED LIGHTS ARE FLASHING!!!!! WHY WOULD HE FLAT CALL A 1/3 POT SIZE BET?????

Is he going to try and outplay us or did he flop a MONSTER. THERE S NO DRAW!

My instincts would be to now check and see what he does.

I wouldnt mind calling with some of my chips, but again not knowing stack sizes, pot sizes, blah blah

I DEFINATELY WOULD NOT WANT TO WATCH THE REST OF THE TOURNAMENT FROM THE SIDE LINES CALLING ALL IN WITH TOP PAIR FAIR KICKER

WRU answer

Check/call

Our hand is vulnerable and we are out of position. Keeping the pot small here is important. If we bet out he may raise us off of our hand, and we don't want that. We may be giving a free card to A4, A3 etc, but it is more important to not get too invested in Top pair ok kicker.

If Grinder checks behind, then we just need a blank to fall on the river. Then we can either check to let Grinder bluff, or value bet the river.

If Grinder bets and we call, i think anything is an automatic check on the river.

BTW on WPT final tables we can assume that neither player is real deep in chips here. The WPT structure is such that they want it to end in a resonable amount of time.

I've read three of these and gotten them all wrong - but, well, Mizrachi right? (Spelled wrong, I imagine.) Shoot, fold should've been an option. He's calling, he must have nine aces. OK, at least pocket fours, when does he ever call? He doesn't reraise before the flop? He doesn't raise a one-third the pot bet? (I am ALWAYS wrong about these things.) But - sawing this limb right off, I'd assume I was beat here. Real beat without the possibility of raising him off the hand. And why am I playing the other chip leader, anyway? I guess I could make a substantial raise and see if he calls and maybe that would help me confirm my suspicions, but why do I want to give more of my chips to the other chip leader? I'm for checking and hoping for a King on the river, I guess. I'd seriously put him, (not some random player but him) on trips or AA.

Go all in, since the grinder likes to play small ball.

a king often raises the flop, right? i don't know much about how grinder plays, but we showed extreme weakness with a 1/3 pot continuation bet on the flop and if we're not raised i'd imagine that means something like 2nd pair good kicker or a pair that beats 2nd pair, or even just a pp. i really think we're good here most of the time.

i checkraise a lot of the time, but i know i use that line too often. the other option in my book is to fire out about 1/2 the pot. all i know about MM is that he likes to put the pressure on against weakness, and that's best manipulated by taking very weak (as in standard for weak hands) lines with strong hands. top pair is strong here in a HU situation, and from the preflop action i would assume the only hand he's got that beats us is KQ, which he'd PROBABLY raise on the flop, but i'm not sure about that. i suppose he could have a set, but the best way to fish that out would be a checkraise too, i think.