I prefer check/calling to check raising. We have to assume that Mizrachi is going to slowdown on the river without a monster, but there is a good chance he bets the turn with a weaker hand than ours. We really do not want a big pot oop. I think check raising will unnecessarily bloat the pot to protect against only 2-5 outs.

I'm not going to read all the responses (read the first page or so), but I picked check. The board is about as draw-free as it could be, and there's a great chance that the Grinder's just floating us on the flop. If we check, I think a bet from him to steal is almost mandatory. If he has a pair that's not a king, he'll be worried about letting us chase six outs, and a king will bet for value. I really doubt the turn will go check-check. Having stack sizes here would help a lot however. Also, I would have made a larger C-bet on the flop since we're looking to get some chips in with what is likely the best hand here.

Well, Daniel got called when he bet at the flop with top pair, and there is no real draw on the flop, so I think you have to give the Grinder credit for some sort of hand. Probably a Kx type of hand where x = T, J, Q, K, or A. With five players, you defend the BB with a longer list of hands, and Kx where x is 7,8,9 is looking good.

With AA, AK, KK, QQ I think there would have been more action preflop, especially with five players short-handed, but I suppose at that level any action is possible, even slowplaying a high pair. One thing is that he has 'some sort of a hand'. He could also have some sort of pp and read Daniel for 'no King' since five-handed, you can rasie with a pretty broad range of hands.

I though that with AK Mizrachi would have raised the bet on the flop, but as the saying goes, "no need to push the wagon when a donkey is doing the pulling." (I am not calling DN a donkey, that is just the saying) The call on the flop bet is an alarm bell. What Mizrachi is saying is "Daniel, you could be betting with Kx and I am calling you because I either have a better hand, or think I will have one shortly." Mizrachi may also see the bet on the flop as a normal continuation bet by Daniel, and decided to play his 99, TT, JJ or other hand giving him second pair. This is why it is important to fire some sort of a bet at the turn, which puts Mizrachi to the decision in case he does not have anything concrete.

If the turn bet gets called, it is time to slow down, because the kicker is just not that great. Another 33% of the pot is an aggressive approach to the pot but something smells here: either outkicked or a set.

If the turn bet gets called, it is time to really wonder about how good KJ is in this situation. The fact Mizrachi is just calling seems to imply KQ, but that is just a guess.

I voted for a 33% of the pot bet and will be fascinated by the answer when it surfaces.

Being totally wrong and learning the correct evaluation is a valuable way to learn, so right or wrong: there you go.

Maybe he is calling to take the pot away later? He is on the button after all. I utilize this every so often, and I have seen the Grinder do it a couple times on WPT season 3 when he went back to back #2 and then winner. I think a 50% bet would effectively kill this plan of his. Since we are both chip leaders, if he re-raises then I muck it. Before that I think we are safe to do a 50% bet.

i think grinder is floating the flop for info a LOT more often than he's representing a real hand. we're ahead a lot more often here than we're behind, IMHO. the question becomes how do we get a weaker hand to get the most money in on the turn (and if possible, fish out the few times we are beat relatively cheaply).

i'd check in front here so i don't make the pot too big.

I'm betting 1/2 - 3/4 the pot!!

Before thinking of my options, I'd like to think of what The Grinder actually may have, and only then come up with the best play.

First he called a raise pre-flop. What could he have called with? A middle pocket pair, or K-Q, or even A-J or A-10 suited. I don't think he would only call with a high pocket pair, or A-K or even A-Q, he would probably reraise, he doesnt want to play the other chip leader heads up, and might be happy to not lose a lot of chips on this hand, and just force me out.

On the flop, he called. I think this eliminates the chances we are against a hand like A-10 or A-J, as he would have probably thrown those away on the flop. Now, what does he think we have? We raised pre-flop, and then raised again on the flop. I think it is obvious that the least we have here is J-J, Q-Q, or a king with a decent kicker. So would he call with a mid pocket pair? definetely not! This leaves us with only 2 possibilities that he may have in his hand. K-Q or he's made a set, and trying to trap us. But he does have us beat right here!

The right action here I would say is check/fold.Not because of the analysis I made before, I am not positive about my analysis, and actually I might have him beat, but the analysis makes sense to me, and more importantly, I'm amongst the chipleaders, I dont want to lose many chips and probably the tournament with a marginal hand. So what if he takes it down and I have a better hand!! I think I better save my chips for a later confrontation, when I have the better of it for sure. Don't risk your chips on a marginal situation..

I think he called our preflop raise with a pair, namely 44 or 22. I would not entirely rule out KK either.

The board is pretty safe for his set, so his smooth call on the flop seems like he's giving you a chance to hit something.

On the turn this is a check/fold for me.

However, i think it is also a possibility he may have nothing. Even so it is still a check, he probably isn't going to call unless he has you beat.

Your opponent made a Bluff-call on the flop just to bluff you on a turn. You should encourage him to do so and bet 33% of the pot so he can re-raise quickly you and then say all in and sit back in your chair. If he thinks about calling, just say to him that he propably has you beat but you had to try That should make his decision making even harder if the 8 helped him (maybe he was in with 78s).

Just push in 33% and if he calls you push on the river. If he raises all in, probably have to fold there

50% of the pot, the reasoning is in the way the grinder plays. If he has chips he likes to make alot of semibluffs and plays at pots for small amounts to keep he LAG image, but by betting 50% of the pot with the blind levels as high as they are at final tables you take that play away, where as I think he will be tempted to raise 1/3 of the pot. Also a check here is a very dangerous move as he he will likely make a play at this pot, almost regardless of what we have. What it does do is keep the pot small which is what you want to do with top pair and decent kicker, but still no way is it better than finding out where we are at. Also the all in bet is dumb, instead of finding out where we are in the hand with say 50% of the pot we now have most of our chips on the line, that just dumb.

after much debate and concern about making a fool of myself i have decided to have a stab at a reponse

the fact that the grinder is on the button, opens up his range of starting hands a little, with the blinds still to act after him (preflop) he would be likely to re-raise with a big hand like AK or AA

i could see him just calling with KQ, 44, 45 sooted, or even 42 sooted. (by the way isnt his favourite hand 44??) these hands are all relevant to the flop, but a pocket pair ranging from 77 to JJ is also a strong possibilty.

i think with position he would raise on the flop with AK KQ or a pocket pair from 77 to JJ and even 45 sooted if he felt you didnt have a K

he could be flat calling for 2 reasons,

1. he may have missed the flop all together and has called to see if by calling he can slow you down on the turn and if you check try and take it away with a bet on the turn

2. he also could be calling with a monster like 3 of a kind 4's and looking to raise you on the turn

either way you must bet the turn in my opinion but perhaps just 33% of the pot as not to commit to many more chips with a marginal hand, this will make him think twice if his original intention was to bluff, but if he comes over the top i think i would fold and look for a better spot

being out of position in this case is a major problem

What's my range been? How much $ do I have in relation to the pot? How much did I raise PF? Was it enough to kick out 22 and 44? I'm likewise guessing it was enough to kick out anything that hits two pair on this flop.

Grinder probably doesn't have a PP -- he surely would have tested us..The only hand that makes sense for the Grinder to have:
• 56
• KQ/KJ/KT

I'm not sure I want to get married to KK jack kicker for my WPT life. But we are short-handed, with (I assume) blind increases coming.

If I have enough chips, I define the hand now, at the turn: I overbet the pot to let him know I have a K. If he calls, I'm in trouble if a danger card peels. OR just trouble period, right now. Also, if he calls, I try to control the action and damage on the river (almost impossible).

In the future, I try to remember that KJ is a trouble hand.

I agree -- something is fishy here. Either he's trapping or he's reacting to having been pushed around in the past. Given his position, trapping is the stronger possibility, but there are other clues. Some important questions -- 1. he's the grinder, who does he think you are? and 2. what's the chip situation relative to the blinds? If his chips are low then your play is check/fold -- he's not likely to risk the tournament trying to catch a bluff. If he thinks that you're solid and your chips are good, then it's a trap and again, Check/fold is right; if he thinks you're been aggressive and your chips are low, then check and if he raises put him on all in. If you've been aggressive and chips are high, then you're on a guess as to what's going on.

I check here but I dunno what the right move is.

I check, keep the pot small, and call down any bets.

I check and see what he does. He will probably bet, and it will leave control of the pot really up to me. I can call and see the river with not being comitted yet having top pair, raise to put him to the test, or fold if I really think he has me beat, which I doubt. Probably end up check raising the turn and check the river to him to see where he's doing. Of course I'm no DN and probably don't have the right answer... which would be interesting

I would bet 50% of the pot.

A very likely situation is that the button thinks Daniel has made a continuation bet on the flop after his pre-flop aggression and has bluff-called him with the hope that he'll be able to take it away on the turn.

The unthreateing board imo would make the button think that Daniel is bluffing because he think Daniel thinks he could have missed and will fold.

As there are no draws, and the turn doesn't help, i would bet again.

Checking is definitely out of the question....lets not bet the flop and check the turn now....

The idea here is to make your opponenet PAY and PAY HARD to see the river....you need to fight hard to win a pot like this and the only way to do it is with a sizeable bet....

But what about going all in? OOPS....that would be a mistake....too easy to get trapped here with a Jack for a kicker....your opponent could have KQ or the big slick....

You need to figure out just how strong his hand is by pressing 50% of the pot....if you get raised then you are probably in a bit of trouble here....if you get called then the odds are you have the better hand

The flop call leads me to believe we could be behind in the hand. The first step would be to decide on a possible range of hands. Possible hands: AK, KQ, 44, 22, 35, these are the hands I feel are most likely to lead to a flop call. The majority of these possibilities have us beat. The 8 on the turn doesn't help my hand. I think a check on the turn is a good idea. If he bets we can safely fold with a minimal loss and if he checks we get to see the river. Checking here allows us to avoid a big pot late in the tournament. Even if we are ahead here the situation is unclear and we are out of position.

i think it is a good spot for a check call. you are either way ahead or way behind int this spot and given the few times i have seen the grinder on tv at wpt final tables he is always looking to steal pots. i think check call turn and check call river is the best play here to get the most value out of your hand he fires multi barrel bluffs alot and if we bet he cant call he can push and that makes for a tough decision. i really like check calling here.

I shove and take it down on the turn. Grinder is not someone I was to tangle with post flop.

Re: Grinder's flop call, I think he has a piece and called because his odds were too good, but I still think we're ahead. It's higly unlikely he's playing with a better K than ours.

I don't know much about the Grinder, but whenever I do see him on TV in some form, he is usually hyper-aggressive. With that in mind, he could be on some type of draw, but at the same time he could of also missed it. You have the lead, so I would check to minimize losses. If he bets, you can check-raise him, because you likely have him on a semi-bluff.

So check it to see what he does. If he checks, you have him, if he bets, he is protecting his hand. You get more information by checking it seems then by calling.

.

Looking at this one I think a large bet is the right move. Sitting on top pair and against another big chip stack you have to make the point that you won't be pushed off a pot.

I say go all in, when you originally bet the 33% of the pot he probably already quessed that when you made the bet, but if thinks that you have a lower kicker than he does then when you go all in with the 8 he probably will think that you then have two pair.. although this is very dangerous because he could have king eight he could also have pocket aces or pocket kings for that matter, but if 33% of the pot is also more then 30% percent of your stack, then you almost have to go all in
or check fold and surrender the pot if raises after you check. Another mind blowing decision.

I would bet size of the pot instead, to make him pay if he has a worse K, or fold if he has something else. I dont want him to hit a second pair on the river, or an ace if he has got an ace. It also works with a half pot bet, perhaps the only difference is that he is folding more to a pot sized than to a half sized pot. So, in the case he calls, and we have him beat, we are getting more chips from him if he has a lower K, and he is folding anyway if he doesnt. On the river Im playing strong if a rag comes again.

Since you've lead out the betting twice now(PF and Flop) he hasn't had a chance to value bet and you haven't had a chance to gauge what he has. I would check and see if/what he bets. His call pre-flop may means he has AX or KX and he may have hit two pair or has the Ace as an over card.

IN. Just because i want to know the answer. First i thought i'd have bet 50 % of the pot. Now that i've read all the posts i think i'd check. So if i was at the table for real i'd be fu...lol

I voted to check. A check here would be best. Check-calling would be very effective in this situation. You want to keep the pot small so you check, if the grinder bets at you call. This protects your hand and if he's making a play its giving you chips. Even if your behind, your losing minimum.

Whenever I'm in a tough spot where I think I might be ahead I use this:

"When in doubt, check-call."

It gives your opponent a chance to bet at you and when your not in the lead you lose minimum or you could get lucky on the river.

If you again bet 33% he probably got you all figured out. So that's what I'd do.
If he re-raises, I'd fold.

I was thinking check-raise. I don't think he has anything (80%) or he's slow playing a very strong hand (20%). Let him bluff off more chips then end the hand.

i like check in ver much

All-in: Risking the first or second chip lead with 5 left on a top pair mid kicker. This is extreme over-betting and you can get the same information from the 30% or 50% bets.

All in looses two ways. #1 Grinder flopped a monster and you are bye bye.
#2 Grinder has mediocre hand like K X or the mid pair mentioned and you loose some cash because he folds.

Check looses as in #2 above, but then opens the door for a Grinder bluff which many seem to worry about. Even if Grinder checks, are you now going to bet on the river after showing weakness?

Raise 30%: It is OK as it could be read as a "please call me now that I know you are willing to throw in chips" and could be read as I just turned 2 pair or better. It also shows you still want money in the pot. It could be read as a weak bet inviting a reraise from the Grinder. I only do not like it because it gives 4 to 1 odds and I get no info if called wether the grinder is on a draw with a weak K or slow playing a monster.

I like Raise 50%: This discourages a reraise as a bluff since it is a stronger bet. It still offers 3 to 1 for a weak draw or even if the grinder slow played a big pair like QQ, JJ. Showing you are willing to throw money in the pot will also invite him to reraise if he has you beat. Except for the now unlikely bluff, the Grinder will tell you exactly what he has by his bet.
Fold = You got me beat.
Call = I want to look you up as I am not convinced. (Or slow playing monster)
Raise = Got you.

You can react accordingly.

My reasoning is this;

There is no way he has a pocket pair. He would've reraised against you or mucked a lower pair. The only card he could've hit is the K. The Grinder more than likely would've bet the hand he had on the flop. However, the board isn't scary in any way. Plus, if he does have AK/KQ he's likely calling us down. The best ploy is to check because I'm thinking he's playing a weak ace or cards you wouldn't play in your every day nine handed table.

The Grinder plays pretty tight meaning I don't think my hand is completely that great but it is heads up and top pair heads up can be pretty good.
I would check call the turn. knowing the board is all rainbow I'm not too scared of letting him see the river. Then block bet the river, but checking the turn might make him think that I'm weak and bluffing and I can't do that with a weak hand like that. But were both chip leaders and I don't think he would reraise me there unless he was really strong. Even if he did smell weakness I think he would probably still fold. Keyword "The Grinder"


Or 1/3 bet turn, 1/3 bet river and hope he's calling with pocket pair.


Does anyone if Daniel gives any thoughts on his questions?
Thanks

[I PICKED THE WRONG ONE I'D SAY CHECK CALLIN WOULD BE WHAT YOU WOULD NEED 2 DO CHECK CALL C HECK CALL RISK AS MANY CHIPS AS POSSIBLE I MEAN KING JACK SHOULD HEVER RAISE PREFLOP BUT 5 HANDED YOU PRETTY MUCH GOT 2 I WOULD OF CHECK CALL CHECK CALL BEEN THE BEST PLAY MOST PPL RAISE PREFLOP AN C BET WITH ANYTHANG THEN SOME ONE IN POSIOSN WILL CALL THAT THEN WHEN YOU CHECK FIRE A GOOD SIZE BET BUT YOUR IN A BAD SPOT NO WAY 2 KNO WHAT HE HAS WITH OUT RISKING ALOT OF CHIPS AN IF THERE IS KMORE THEN 5 PPL LEFT YOU SHOLDN'T BE RASIGN WITH THAT GARBAGE ANYWAYS

im taking the lead cuz im out of position and acted first to start with. put the pressure on the button cuz i dont think he really wants to tangle with the other chip leader. theres no sense for him to get into a pissing contest. he would have to believe i have AK cuz im not going to risk my chips either. lets stop fighting amongst ourselves and take out the small stacks to get heads up with each other. and for that matter, he would now come over the top with a set and i found out what i needed to know. job well done....next hand please dealer LOL

I would bet 1/3 of the pot. While we are probably ahead, no need in tangling w/the other big stack at the table. Who wants to go broke w/a pair of kings and a decent kicker. Based on his position I would say that he is simply sticking around for the ride but why get the pot bigger than it needs to be. If you have just led out on consecutive streets he probably knows that we have something. If we bet bigger on the turn he might be more inclined to come over the top w/a steal attempt and then what? How many of us have busted out of tournaments when we first started out by not letting go of top pair. While I don't get intimidated easily, I also don't like to go broke making hero calls. I would try to keep it small and let my top pair take down a moderate pot.

Completely disagree. While you don't want to go broke here, you can't give the away free cards and get no information when you have top pair w/a decent kicker. 1/3 to 1/2 the pot to let him know I have something. As you say he's a small baller. If he's calling just to see a flop, you need to start applying pressure after the 3 cards hit the board. A lot would depend on his reaction to the post flop bet. If he thinks I am continuation betting and wants to reraise with a steal attempt I may even repop him once. Either way I want him to fold w/my initial bet or reraise me so that I can find out once and for all once if I repop him. As soon as I hit top pair here I want to get this hand over with on the flop (whether that is winning it or losing it). He will be just as scared of my stack as I am of his. I don't think he is going to go broke trying to make a move on the other big stack. If he calls the reraise than he is either very stong or braver than I am and I will let him have it. My goal w/a hand like this is to keep it small and take down smallish pots. However, at a short handed table late in a tournament you don't want to just give away chips by playing scared either. If this guy is any good at all he will detect some weakness when you're "jabbing" at the pot, so you will probably have to make at least one stand to take control of the hand. Ideally I wouln't want to risk more than about 25% of my stack to win this hand. If I could afford to reraise once and stay within that range I would do it.

There is a ton of info missing here to make a correct decision. How have I been playing recently? More specifically how have I been playing against The Grinder and how does he view me? What information do I have about The Grinder other than the hands I have seen on TV (which pretty much tell me nothing because they are specific to the situation at the time)? The list of questions goes on. I apologize if these questions have been brought up and answered.

In general though I think we are ahead of his range. So the question is whether we can go for 2 or 3 streets of value. If you think only two then checking is best planning to call a bet or value bet the river. If 3 streets than value bet half pot in my opinion.

I would probably check in this situation because even though I have top pair on a rainbow board, what hands would a grinder call me with preflop and on a flop like that? He most likely has me outkicked so I would look to play a smallish pot her by checking and calling then maybe make a defensive bet or check the river

The Grinder plays a similar small ball style. In fact, he has called it "opposite poker". He could call here with bottom pair or even AK. With top pair, suspect kicker a little larger bet will better define if he is "floating" to bluff another street or feeling out if his hand is best considering we might have continuation bet. The only other option I would consider here is "checking" to keep the pot small.

I would bet about 33% and find out where I'm at. If he calls I more fearful than if he raises. Grinder is an aggressive player but if he flopped a set he is going to value town on the river. If the river is a blank I would check call again trying to look like I wanted a cheap showdown. Grinder is going to fire with most of his range, we know he doesn't have AA -AK or he would have raised preflop to keep the blinds out. So he could have AT-A2, KQ-K2 Qx or a small pair. If he flopped a set and is slowplaying He is going to try to make a bet you can call since the line you took will make it look like you would fold to a shove. If he has air or an underpair you may induce a bluff on the river which based on the line I suggest I would call. I hope that made sense?

How many years do we have to wait for Daniel to chime in with a response to his own question?

Half pot bet works for me. He could be slow playing a monster but I would have expected a reraise preflop. Especially 5 handed. You don't want to see a flop without a little more info from your opponent. If he reraises the half pot raise then I think you have to fold. Depending on how many chips you have left. Stack size would be helpful. The reraise would indicate something like 2 pair. Maybe K4 suited or maybe he was calling with the K and turned 2 pair with the 8. The turn raise will let you know were you stand. If he calls the turn raise the you check the river and hope for the best.

You could really speculate all day. I would love to hear Daniel's thoughts.

Newbie mistake. Just noticed the answer. My bad.

I would stare him down until his head exploded.

But seriously, check would probably be the most adaquate play here. You don't have much information on him except that he has shown interest in the hand. Get a feel for what he is doing. I don't play that high stakes, so I don't really know. If any bet, I would keep it a consistent percentage of the pot, basically mocking the percentage of the last bet.