PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $4 BB (4 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

UTG ($232)
Button ($497.40)
Hero ($247.20)
BB ($256.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Jc, 3h, 5d, Ad.
2 folds, Hero raises to $12, BB raises to $36, Hero calls $24.

Flop: ($72) Th, 8c, Jh (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $70, Hero calls $70.

Turn: ($212) 7d (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

River: ($212) Kc (2 players)
Hero bets $141.2 (All-In), BB folds.

Final Pot: $353.20


(see original at http://www.pokerhand.org/?693542 if you want)


The fact that he folded here is irrelevant, I think. Sometimes it's a good result if he folded a better hand (rare), but other times it's a bad result if I had the best hand and he would have bluffed (though it would take a lot of balls to check/call a $150 all-in bet with just second pair, haha).

Check/fold, or push, or something different?? e.g. bet $70 and fold to a raise (effectively a min raise is a push), or something weird like that, and if so, what's the logic behind it?

Thanks,
Aseem


edit: also, do you play any other part of the hand differently? The flop is the key decision which I'm also not sure about, and I decided to float it and c/r-push if I hit two pair on the turn. Wasn't sure how to play any other hand because I'm behind AAxx and I don't know if my low draw is always live. Would you check/fold the turn to a push, or would you donk bet push, or would you check/call a push, or what?

I don't call that flop bet and you can shoot me if I every check/call the river bet with 2nd pair here.

Check/call a river push is not an option, I think that's really bad without a read, and even then it's super marginal.

On the turn, the choices are:

- donk bet push (tptk + 2nd nut low draw + fold equity against a better high hand)
- check/call a push

(I think check/folding the turn to a push isn't great, because here a lot of bare A-2's are likely to semi bluff push in a big pot, but tell me if you disagree and would check/fold to a push here. I think that's pretty weak, though, with good prospects on both the high and the low and the big pot...)

On the river, the choices are:

- donk bet push (fold equity vs better high hand)
- check/fold to a push
- something else, like a blocker bet of some sort, folding to a raise, and if so, why?

Aseem

P.S. Why do you fold on the flop, out of curiousity? Four-handed, medium stacks, etc.

i very, very often donkbet shove the turn when the draw fills. you played this like a wrap, and if i'm the villain, i believe you at least the first 2 times you pull this.

as for other streets, well, i dunno. if you think all your 2p outs are good on the flop and the other guy doesn't have a flush redraw, you're often better off shoving there while you have the assured equity to do so with a relatively big pot built already. if you brick the turn and he fires all in, you now have to fold, and that's kinda costly.

really it all depends on how often this rr preflop is AA with this specific villain. without reads, i assume about 80% of preflop rrs to be AAxx, but if someone shows me that they can do it with AKQ2 or even 5678 ds, i get miffed and usually find a more profitable game.

checky, can you elaborate here? I don't understand why I would want to shove on the flop if AAxx (esp with a low card) almost always calls here, but on most turns he might fold. and why do we have to fold a brick turn if it's a low card, e.g. this turn?



the bold part made me laugh. reraising with 5678 ds is clearly a losing play, but you are right that i would want to get out of the game if the player was good enough to be able to do that AND make money consistently. yikes.


aseem

i'm not sure that AAxx without redraws would call here with a low card since he'd need to go running low for his backup. but i dunno, i didn't really work through the math with stack sizes and stuff. the key decision here would be whether you're going to play the hand straight up or try to figure out how to set up a bluff. straight up, i think i like pooooshing the flop since a pair with a weak redraw is about even money with AAxx weak redraw on a one low flop, and there's a fair amount of money in the pot already. and i really like the gambool.

the thing is that AAxx wouldn't know whether you're doing that with one pair (which would be an instacall obv), two pair (which would be close), two pair running low (which would also be close), two pair running nut low (probably a barely-fold without AA2x), a set (easy fold), or a huge draw of some kind (call or fold, depending). by shoving the flop, you're saying "i think you have AA, and now i win." you're then putting the villain to the test and forcing HIM to make the read and decision, and the value of doing that is difficult to quantify, but it is really +ev, especially if you know how to manipulate certain tendencies in a 4-card game over a long-ish session.

by just calling the flop you're looking like either a set that wants to wait till the turn (which happens much less than a draw) or a draw. the problem is that most people will assume the latter, and if the turn comes off a brick then they'll generally think AA just got helped out a ton and be willing to fight for the pot. but that part is player-dependent enough for me not to quibble with your decision to play the hand as you did. personally, i shove the flop, but that's a stylistic thing that i got good at manipulating over the course of a lot of hands. there are definitely multiple ways of beating plo8, and i'm definitely not saying you're "wrong" in any way. i just do it differently is all. hope i explained why adequately above.




ha, when i play plo8 i play about 80% of my hands, sometimes literally every non-trips hand at some tables, and sometimes raising/reraising every time. in deepstacked situations, i very often pot/repot EVERY hand preflop to **** with people--5678ds would look like a monster for me in a lot of spots, lol. i also make money .

i learned that style from playing plo8 with leggggggggy on UB a lot a while back. he crushed me for a while, till i figured out what he was doing and started to emulate his style, which is very similar to what i do now. we then kinda just stayed away from each other and bled everyone else dry. if he still plays the 5/10 game on UB, give it a look sometime. i definitely learned a lot by logging a lot of hands with him, but it's kinda hard to explain what i got out of all that in specific terms. basically, you can make people uncomfortable to the point where they'll start pushing too hard with really vulnerable holdings and you'll be paying a preflop pot bet every hand to basically have your choice of which hands to play for all the money postflop. super, super, super +ev, but also a lot of variance.

Didn't read the other replies yet. But Aseem it seems like your question is should u had just check called the river to induce a bluff?

I will say no and I say u played this perfectly. if you checked, BB will think, hmm I bet flop he called, checked the turn, and checked the river. First of all most of the times weak means weak. Then if he's drawing a wrap then he had the most pot equity on the flop and he shoulda shoved as most players would. So I am gonna make a bet so the SB can not call.

Just be happy that you take down a nice pot with a crappy hand.

JacKing,

I don't think check/call river is a good option at all. I was mostly wondering between check/fold or push, or some other alternative like bet $70 and fold to a push.

I agree that checking with the intention of calling is not great. But I think I see in your post why checking with the intention of folding also isn't great.

Aseem