too early for read.
But he has not played loose/fast yet..less than 2 rotations though


PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: BamaBound is MP1 with A, 5.
2 folds, BamaBound calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB raises, BamaBound calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) Q, 4, 4 (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, BamaBound calls, MP2 folds, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 2 (3 players)
BB bets, BamaBound raises, Button 3-bets, BB folds, BamaBound calls.

River: (13.50 BB) A (2 players)
BamaBound bets, Button raises, BamaBound calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

table was loosish
I raise Ac8c.
And fold this in tougher games

Yeah, I open limp, gotta problem?

I would cap turn, bet/call river. Button can only have 44 or 22 to beat us. Maybe 42s or Q4s and then A4s on river.

Also why bet the river?

To get value from trips and worse flushes and saving $$$ against boats (if I went for c/r)
I get nervous when raised o paired board. Hardly any hand makes sense that I'm behind.

Why not raise the flop?

We don't want to the field to have to fade 2 cold. It'd be a raise if the bet came directly from our right, but we want callers behind us.

Wang

But isn't there some value in making hands like A10 fold for 2 bets cold? And sometimes we may be able to get the bb to fold hands like JJ or AK to a turn bet. I'm raising as a semi-bluff, not for value.

The parlay necessary for this raise to profitable is pretty unlikely:

1) Someone behind us must have a Ax

2) That person must be willing to call the single bet

3) That person must be unwilling to call 2 cold

4) We spike what amounts to a 2-outer on the turn/river

5) That Ace is a clean out/makes our hand good

6) Our flush doesn't come



Or:

Given the bloated size of the pot, when a blank comes on the turn, we can lead when we miss and fold out an overpair on the turn, which is very unlikely.


The combination of scenarios 1-6 and our increased FE must be > the equity we get by letting more people into the pot, in terms of express odds and implied odds.

Not to mention the fact that we could get 3-bet either by someone behind us or the initial raiser, which is pretty much worst case scenario if nobody else comes along. We'd probably have to cap, and take the free card on the turn if we miss.

Wang

Actually, I just realized that the idea of raising to clean up our outs is quite foolish because if we spike our ace on the turn, we are still chopping with A10 and lower.

And you're also right that Ax type hands are probably not calling even a single bet on this flop. But I still think a raise could give us enough fold equity to make it a profitable play, although it may well be inferior to simply calling.

more input on turn and river please.

I try to rationalize different turn and river combos; but in general, I think I do this one too often, i.e. Not Capping Turn but leading river.

I have these thoughts about: When he thinks he's ahead you get more bets when you are ahead, than when you represent more strength, in which case he raises only very strong hands.

i really do hate these situations...i think id rather cap the turn and b/c the river since i think we beat his range more often than he beats us...I think he could potentially make this play with a lesser flush draw as well as trips or a boat...the problem is the hand id most put him on is a4 and that means he boated on u

so cap turn and c/c this river?
Since I have an Ace too, I think we are still ahead enough, usually to lead here, though.

My main reason for not capping turn is to lead river and get raised by worse hands.
Capping turn I get chekd behind by some worse or raised almost only by better, I think.
But I do get 5 bets at least from trips and worse flushes always that way
So, it comes down to ranges and villain propensity to over value trips and under flushes here?

The reason we cap the turn, here, against an opponent who will 3-bet w/o a boat is that he'll often JUST CALL the river when he doesn't improve if you 3-bet, lead, and will RAISE 100% of the time if his hand improves. Basically, we're letting him off light if he's got an underflush or just trips, and letting him get extra value in when he makes a boat. By not capping here and then leading OOP, we give him SOME discretion on how many bets go in if he's drawing to a full house. He's often 3-betting here with a hand like 45 or an underflush. When he's full already, we lose 1 extra bet by capping and leading the turn (6 bets in vs 5 bets). When he's drawing dead, we win an extra bet some of the time (when he raises the river drawing dead when we cap, or when he calls the river and ALSO would have just called if we'd called the 3-bet and donked) and break even some of the time (when our smooth call of his 3-bet CAUSES him to raise the river when we lead, so 5 bets are going in no matter what we do). When he's drawing to 10 outs, we lose an extra bet when he hits (usually 6 bets in vs. 5) and often win an extra be if he misses (5 or 6 vs. 4 or 5).

I suppose what it comes down to (and I could probably put together a decent matrix for this, but I won't, because my little brother wants to use the computer) is: How often has he already filled up here?

I think my plan on the turn is to cap, and lead/call any card except an ace, Q, 2, or 4. You have to call if the board pairs, because he'll value bet too many hands (like KcXc) that we beat. What is your plan if a 4th club rolls off?
Wang

4th cub, I bet.
I think he checks behind too often otherwise.
If he raises, I only call for sure.


I think I try to get too precise; and in this hand and that board, I'm ahead too often to not cap turn, imo.
A bit of Monster-Under-Bed with my turn non-cap. Yet, I lead river because I'm concerned he checks behind often enough such that I should risk a boat raise here. It's not that he checks behind ever, it's that he rarely has a boat.

My weird thinking is that there are certain cases when this play is best even when my hand does not improve. (not capping, but then leading) While I'm too tired to come up with one, and question its existence, I use this pattern too much. I really don't cap w/o nutties enough.

I can see reasoning for the way you played it. I think I would cap the turn and b/c the river.

Early position with A5s open limp? Nah, I don't have a problem with that. At what point is it a raise. ATs... A9s? I despise weak A's (But it was soooooted)