villian: 17.5/8/2.17 after 235 hands


Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $33.30
UTG+1: $15.90
MP1: $24.75
MP2: $5.80
Hero: $16.65
CO: $12.65
Button: $4.50
SB: $9.60
BB: $9

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP3 with [Ad] [Kh]
3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: [6c] [7d] [7c] (6.4SB, 3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, MP2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

Turn: [4s] (6.2BB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: [9s] (8.2BB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets




Villian was a thinking opponent. I posted this hand b/c of what actuary brought up about betting turns and rivers....

Comments on all streets please

Im gonna need a pretty strong read to do something like this.

Also on river I think a bet is a spew. I would just check and hope he had a club draw.

Ok, hands like this are reaaalllllly read dependent, and this isn't something I've had to add to my game until I moved to AP.

I sometimes 3-bet this flop, I sometimes call, and raise any turn, in position, and take a free showdown if he calls. A lot of the time, we are looking at overs here, but it's also quite possible that it's a PP or 6x. I like getting to showdown with this, but I don't like betting the river. As played, it's definitely a check through.

when he calls your bet on the turn youre done.

how often do we need a mid pocket pair to fold this river for it to be profitable?

what range does a tag need to call a raise preflop from mp3?

edit: i took out the BB river action to not bias anybody who reads this afterwards...for those who saw it...try to ignore that...as the result was not what u expected

Too many mid pairs have draws to see river.
By then he'd be bad to fold a pair on that board getting 9:1, even though you did try to represent an over pair with your flop 3bet/turn bet.

If he has a draw or overs, wel, you win anyway.

Im' putting less bets in.
If I 3 bet flop, I'm checking behind on turn, and calling a non club river.

so we woudl expect no pocket pairs to fold this river?

55/88 might.
They might call flop 3 bet for pride and turn for odds.
Like I said, you representing a made hand.

Is this like my comment, where players might call w/o odds on turn, assuming you won't bet river in pos w/o a better pair?

If he folds a PP 1/12 times, you aren't making a big error. And depending on how you use the info you gave him if he looks you up, maybe you win an extra value bet or two later on.

FWIW, I wouldn't count on any players at any stakes I've played to be smart enough to think about the turn and river bets the way we were talking about in the last thread. I've played up to 5/10.

he is never folding that river with a pair. ever. i dont care how good your odds are. if he folded he had a flush draw.

sometimes the pots get so big that a bet or a call you make might be bad but it cant really be that bad because of odds. imo you should be inclinded to make these bets and calls, even if think it might be a tiny bit bad.

i dont not feel that this is not one of those cases.

plus checking that river makes you look damn good. ide be less inclinded to **** with you in future hands if you checked that river against me.

yeah kinda similar to what we were talkin about in the kqs thread.

fwiw he called down with ajo and i took the pot.

that's real odd for a AF=2.2 player.

Turrible river bet, but I'm sure everyone's said that already. I don't know how often you get paid off here by AQ/AJ, or chop with another AK, but it's horrendously -EV. I think your FE is almost exactly zero, and when you get called, you're getting called by hands you beat like 1/15 times.

Wang

thats kinda why i was posting it...i do think the river bet was to much but the fact that he still called with just aj seems to show the mentality of even some of the "better" players on these rivers

Umm, I'm not sure I 100% agree, but it's hard for me to explain why.

He probably did not have a read on you as being smart enough to only bet the river with a hand that will win if he calls. He probably assumes you are a random donk, like we do with unknowns. Perharps he doesn't have PT, or wasn't paying attention, etc. Random players fire the 3rd bullet without reason only because they think they can't win at showdown, or without reason at all.

Now, the reason, I think I'm posting this is that I consider myself a "better" player, and I will still call down with A high here a lot, even AJ sometimes. I don't necessarily mean in this particular hand in that way. But I raise PF, villain raises flop, I will call down with A-high a lot against certain villains.

I really don't know what I'm trying to get at here. I can't quite convey what is going on in my head, I think, lol.

Zach,

in this case though, given that board and our preflop raise and flop 3-bet, he can't think AJ is good enough to call the river. It's not like we're probably bluffing a missed draw often enough. And when we are, we have AQ/AK too often.

Oh I know. I'm not advocating a bet here, by any means, or a call on his part.

I think I just lost myself like 10 levels of thinking deep, and now I don't even know what my point was supposed to be.

thats my thoughts too..against a preflop raise, flop 3 bet and and a turn bet....what range could he put us on?... Im startin to think that even the better players feel "priced" into hands as opposed to a donk who doesnt know why he calls...either way bluffing rivers just dont work at low limits

I understand what you mean about callin down light against some opponents...and thats about all i got...i think im like u with lots in my mind but not the right words to say it at the moment...actuary ur due to come in and say what we are all thinking

Yeah, I was at work, and I'm not allowed to be on non-work sites, so I had to be stealth and type quick, lol.

lol.
I already have.

Can you believe I'm at work and this is my last day?

I'm trying to leave some documentation

AJo. That's crazy. With those numbers I really put the guy on a PP.

Maybe he was just playing our line back at us. Trying to push us off a PP.