Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with A Q
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 5 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 2 3 6 (8SB, 4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: A (5.5BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: 7 (8.5BB, 3 players)
Hero checks...



Sooooo... who plays it 100% differently cuz I think everyone does...

3bet preflop.

as played, donkbet turn and call down if raised. this is AJ just as often as it is AK or an overpair, and there's a good chance you want to see how the utg guy reacts to that ace and you waking up.

what's the ep raising range on this guy?

Well, he was new to the table at the time, so it's tough to put a read on him. I've never played with him before either.

Most ranges would be TT+, AJ+, maybe KQs.

3town pf and bet turn. If you just call pf cc flop cr turn.

actually, sometimes i c/r this flop to get it HU and get a good chance at folding any non-pair on the turn when i'm feeling feisty.

donkbet on turn is a must IMHO, to see what sandwiched guy does. it's the cheapest way to figure out if he flopped a monster or turned 2p on you. if he just calls, you don't have to worry about him (barring fd maybe, but not often) and can concentrate on the orig raiser.

What kind of player is UTG+1? My default against a tight player raising UTG would be to fold AQo. Depending on the player I think calling is ok, I actually don't think I like 3-betting all that well. I really don't mind the way you played the hand at all, except that I might consider donking the turn and/or the river.

However, I think we get raised on the turn by a lot of Aces, which means we have to call b/c he doesn't always have AK (though he often does if he raises the turn).

I'm not really afraid of the diamonds and I actually think that donking the river might represent the diamonds, the problem is that unless our villain has major leaks and folds too much, he's never folding a hand that beats us anyway and might bet AJ or AT for value, so I think we get as much or more with a check/call line.

*edit* I missed that the BB keeps coming along for the ride, we really need to do something to get rid of him. I like c/ring either the flop or the turn, to do this.

If utg+1 isn't reckless then I think 3 betting may get us in trouble here, just calling and seeing a flop is prob our best bet.

I c/f the flop. Most of the time our outs aren't clean and we just end up losing ourself more money if we hit oop.

If I did get to the turn, I'm betting out to prevent the turn from checking through.

Come again? No read was given to us...we're going to 3-bet in the worst position with AQ?

I might've c/r the turn...if I just call the turn, I'm betting the river, folding if BB raises and calling if UTG raises.

If this is the norm at the table and the structure is 1/3 fold preflop

Yes. We'd like to shut out the BB, and if UTG folds his weakish limping hand, there's more dead money. If he calls, we've definitely got a substantive value-edge over him. This is a pretty automaitc 3-bet.

Checky's line sounds good to me. It's making me think I need to start donking turns more often. I almost never do.

I especially like the idea about c/r ing the flop to face the field with two cold. I do this very often. Our FE is very high on the turn. Most non-paired hands will simply call, and fold the turn UI.

Wang

against an unknown, this is pretty tough. depending on the PFR, i'll almost always fold or 3-bet, and usually the latter.

as played, i c/r the turn! that's right, the turn. i think very few players are going to 3-bet with AK, and very rarely check behind, and those are our main worries.

i strongly consider c/ring the flop, but it depends on our table image. i c/r a lot of flops, so i only do it here if i think i know how the PFR will react.

hmmmm.
3 handed, I'd play it more aggressively.

I prefer a preflop raise to a call.
And a fold vs the tightest UTG raisers

Even more importantly, we don't want to be letting the BB see a river for a single bet. There are plenty of hands that have between 5 and 9 outs against us, and it's absolutely inexcusable to give him the odds to chase those draws. Plus, he likely won't put any more money in the pot on the river if he's drawing, so we might as well tap him now when we're ahead.

Checkraising the flop is the best play much of the time. Even if it's close to value-neutral (which I don't think it is...), I think you need to look for places like this to splash around a little bit. It gives you a better read on your opponents, and will serve to get you action later.

Not check/raising the turn is nigh-criminal.

Wang

It's 2/3 structure.

Table is pretty tight, since it's AP.

While I had no definitive read on this guy, after like 8 hands or whatever I had up, he was like 60/40 or something like that, so I figured he could have been raising lighter. The thnig is, I see a lot more loose UTG, EP raises with stuff like KQ, KJ, since a lot of the players have picked up that these games are pretty tight.

I really don't think folding preflop is a good idea, even at a 1/3.

With that extra information I can appreciate trying to isolate by 3-betting. Calling would be wrong.

At a tight table folding AQo is fairly standard in any position except the BB. Given the 2/3 structure calling becomes border line, but as I said before, given your read although undefinative you should want to isolate if you are going to play at all.

If UTG+1 knows everyone would likely be folding to his preflop raise, his raising range would be significantly broader.

Given this, shouldn't we fold less often against him from the sb?



--cm

See, that's my thinking. Most of these guys know that the tables are tight. The average PFR at most tables is 11-13% which means almost every hand is raised pf, and a bunch are 3-bet. It can't be AK, AA, KK, every time. Opening ranges are significantly broader than SSHE would suggest.

If he is good enough to make this adjustment, he is good enough to realise not to make it from early position.

Isolation plays and blind steals which increase PFR% above ABC standards come from later positions.

With all info to hand ie 2/3 structure and UTG+1 being overly aggressive for the few hands the play becomes a raise preflop. If he was raising from a later position against 1 limper or first in I'd gladly 3-bet.

In a 1/3 or even 1/2 structure where the average player is TAG and UTG+1 is unknown I'll go with Miller and bin it from any position

not necessarily. i was at a table last night that respected preflop raises from EP so much that i raised suited connectors and even a couple 910o-type hands from UTG and UTG+1 all night long. i got 3bet by AK once and QQ once and stole the blinds upwards of 15 times.

point is, a good player will not just mix it up in LP if the situation is right. s/he will mix up position as well. whether or not the villain is making these sorts of adjustments is relatively moot--the important thing is that if you're going to play this hand, reraising preflop is absolutely necessary, especially OOP so that you can make the villain have to hit an unmade hand. you absolutely cannot just call two cold OOP unless you have an image that is tricky to the point that you'd be doing so only with a big pair. but no one's likely watching you that closely, so 3bet all day long.

How long did it take you to realise that the table was that tight? Probably a couple of orbits at least?

How often did you do it second in to the pot?

first question: yeah, a couple orbits.

second: a couple. when a table can be run over that easily i don't really get scared of limpers.

i wasn't trying to claim that this is obviously a situation where someone has raised 67s or anything silly like that, just that if someone were to do something like that, they might not be a bad player, or even that in some situations, if UTG+1 was raising 67s after UTG limped, that might be the right adaptation to the table.

So, I butchered this hand because I was scared money for some reason... no idea why. Anyways, river checked through and he had KQo.

I three-bet this PF about 99% of the time. If you have reason to believe the player's raising light, then it becomes automatic. We really don't want to give BB the chance to hit a flop on us cheap with something like 54o, and the fact that we're OOP is all the more reason that we want to take control of the hand. As you described the initial raiser, I'd give him a range of about A9+, KT+, QT+, JT, 22+. We definitely don't want to be cold-calling against that range.