I played this hand yesterday or the day before (???). I think we're 9 handed, but it could be 10. 10/20 live with some local guys. The game is good. I'm known as a good player. I posted this in Off-Topic, and decided I want to post it here, too.
MP is too loose preflop, and is very predictable. Button is bad.
Preflop:
MP limps, I raise on the CO with KdJd, Button calls, blinds fold, MP calls.
Flop (6 sb)
Qs 9d 5s
MP checks, I BET, Button calls, MP folds
Turn (4BB)
Qh
I BET, Button calls
River (6BB)
9x
I check, Button BETS, I RAISE
I've been thinking about this and similar hands. Talk to me.
Full Version: Live: 10/20 Kjs U/i
Aw Wangy...
Why are we making plays at a bad player?
I don't see the need to raise preflop. If the button is bad, we should encourage him to come along so we can outplay him postflop.
Flop and and turn bets are fine. If the donk had nothing, he was folding the turn to all those scary Q's.
River, maybe a c/c. It's hard for me to believe that even a bad player doesn't at least have an A here, if not a 9rag. Maybe a c/f, now that I think about it.
Why are we making plays at a bad player?
I don't see the need to raise preflop. If the button is bad, we should encourage him to come along so we can outplay him postflop.
Flop and and turn bets are fine. If the donk had nothing, he was folding the turn to all those scary Q's.
River, maybe a c/c. It's hard for me to believe that even a bad player doesn't at least have an A here, if not a 9rag. Maybe a c/f, now that I think about it.
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 12:16 PM) 
Aw Wangy...
Why are we making plays at a bad player?
I don't see the need to raise preflop. If the button is bad, we should encourage him to come along so we can outplay him postflop.
Flop and and turn bets are fine. If the donk had nothing, he was folding the turn to all those scary Q's.
River, maybe a c/c. It's hard for me to believe that even a bad player doesn't at least have an A here, if not a 9rag. Maybe a c/f, now that I think about it.
Why are we making plays at a bad player?
I don't see the need to raise preflop. If the button is bad, we should encourage him to come along so we can outplay him postflop.
Flop and and turn bets are fine. If the donk had nothing, he was folding the turn to all those scary Q's.
River, maybe a c/c. It's hard for me to believe that even a bad player doesn't at least have an A here, if not a 9rag. Maybe a c/f, now that I think about it.
Preflop this is the easiest raise in the world. Even if button is bad i would still like position on the hand and the blinds out and if they call I have a good hand.
I agree that we shouldnt be making plays at a bad player. I dont think he is folding anything that is beating us. Maybe he is folding a KT or KJ that we tie, but I dont think he is folding an Ace or a pair higher than 99s. Still not sure what river line I take though.
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 2:16 PM)
Aw Wangy...
Why are we making plays at a bad player?
I don't see the need to raise preflop. If the button is bad, we should encourage him to come along so we can outplay him postflop.
Flop and and turn bets are fine. If the donk had nothing, he was folding the turn to all those scary Q's.
River, maybe a c/c. It's hard for me to believe that even a bad player doesn't at least have an A here, if not a 9rag. Maybe a c/f, now that I think about it.
Why are we making plays at a bad player?
I don't see the need to raise preflop. If the button is bad, we should encourage him to come along so we can outplay him postflop.
Flop and and turn bets are fine. If the donk had nothing, he was folding the turn to all those scary Q's.
River, maybe a c/c. It's hard for me to believe that even a bad player doesn't at least have an A here, if not a 9rag. Maybe a c/f, now that I think about it.
Well, if you're not raising here, you're making a very, very big mistake. Our hand plays great multiway, but even better in position heads up (at least) heads up in the betting lead against a weak-limper. Letting a hand like A9o come along for free behind us is CRIMINAL.
If the villian has an ace, doesn't that make my play significantly better than a c/c? What about a busted draw?
What if the 9 paired on the turn, and the Q came on the river (which, now that I think about it, might have been the case)?
How often is this some kind of busted draw (small flush, TJ, 8Ts, etc) our a counterfeited under pair?
What do you think about the river if I have AK?
Wang
Everything's fine up until the river. On this river though, you're folding an ace about 0% of the time. If you think villian's got a draw here, then just c/c, but I think this has to be a c/f the vast majority of the time.
QUOTE (iggymcfly @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 2:34 PM)
Everything's fine up until the river. On this river though, you're folding an ace about 0% of the time. If you think villian's got a draw here, then just c/c, but I think this has to be a c/f the vast majority of the time.
If you guys really think this, then, duh, of course the river is awful.
But I think we're folding an Ace very very very often here.
Wang
QUOTE (Shimmering Wang @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 2:29 PM)
Well, if you're not raising here, you're making a very, very big mistake. Our hand plays great multiway, but even better in position heads up (at least) heads up in the betting lead against a weak-limper. Letting a hand like A9o come along for free behind us is CRIMINAL.
If the villian has an ace, doesn't that make my play significantly better than a c/c? What about a busted draw?
What if the 9 paired on the turn, and the Q came on the river (which, now that I think about it, might have been the case)?
Wang
If the villian has an ace, doesn't that make my play significantly better than a c/c? What about a busted draw?
What if the 9 paired on the turn, and the Q came on the river (which, now that I think about it, might have been the case)?
Wang
Raise is probably right. I'll give that to you.
What do you mean by "better" if the villain does just have an A? It's better if you think he'll fold it, adding gas to the fire if you think he won't. Situational.
If the 9 paired the turn and the Q came on the river, the play isn't awful, as long as we KNOW that the button has neither the Q nor the 9 most of the time.
QUOTE
How often is this some kind of busted draw (small flush, TJ, 8Ts, etc) our a counterfeited under pair?
You tell me.QUOTE
What do you think about the river if I have AK?
We're pushing a very thin line and again we have to be giving a "bad" player more credit to make a laydown than maybe we should, depending on how "bad" he is. IMO, any A combo in your hand would be the same as AK (unless you had a Q or 9 with it).
I guess my question is...are you raising the river to get a fold or raising to get a call?
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 2:39 PM)
Raise is probably right. I'll give that to you.
What do you mean by "better" if the villain does just have an A? It's better if you think he'll fold it, adding gas to the fire if you think he won't. Situational.
If the 9 paired the turn and the Q came on the river, the play isn't awful, as long as we KNOW that the button has neither the Q nor the 9 most of the time.
You tell me.
We're pushing a very thin line and again we have to be giving a "bad" player more credit to make a laydown than maybe we should, depending on how "bad" he is. IMO, any A combo in your hand would be the same as AK (unless you had a Q or 9 with it).
I guess my question is...are you raising the river to get a fold or raising to get a call?
What do you mean by "better" if the villain does just have an A? It's better if you think he'll fold it, adding gas to the fire if you think he won't. Situational.
If the 9 paired the turn and the Q came on the river, the play isn't awful, as long as we KNOW that the button has neither the Q nor the 9 most of the time.
You tell me.
We're pushing a very thin line and again we have to be giving a "bad" player more credit to make a laydown than maybe we should, depending on how "bad" he is. IMO, any A combo in your hand would be the same as AK (unless you had a Q or 9 with it).
I guess my question is...are you raising the river to get a fold or raising to get a call?
This line is incredibly disturbing...
QUOTE (Shimmering Wang @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 2:43 PM)
This line is incredibly disturbing...
Tough love. No seriously, I pwn limit. I wonder how we both do sometimes.
Are you gonna answer or will we leave it at this?
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 2:39 PM)
Raise is probably right. I'll give that to you.
What do you mean by "better" if the villain does just have an A? It's better if you think he'll fold it, adding gas to the fire if you think he won't. Situational.
If the 9 paired the turn and the Q came on the river, the play isn't awful, as long as we KNOW that the button has neither the Q nor the 9 most of the time.
You tell me.
We're pushing a very thin line and again we have to be giving a "bad" player more credit to make a laydown than maybe we should, depending on how "bad" he is. IMO, any A combo in your hand would be the same as AK (unless you had a Q or 9 with it).
I guess my question is...are you raising the river to get a fold or raising to get a call?
What do you mean by "better" if the villain does just have an A? It's better if you think he'll fold it, adding gas to the fire if you think he won't. Situational.
If the 9 paired the turn and the Q came on the river, the play isn't awful, as long as we KNOW that the button has neither the Q nor the 9 most of the time.
You tell me.
We're pushing a very thin line and again we have to be giving a "bad" player more credit to make a laydown than maybe we should, depending on how "bad" he is. IMO, any A combo in your hand would be the same as AK (unless you had a Q or 9 with it).
I guess my question is...are you raising the river to get a fold or raising to get a call?
Raise is surely right, 100% of the time. There are much worse hands we will raise here, too.
In the games I play, I am pretty sure all but the best and worst players fold with just Ace hi, here. Some will bet it, to save half the pot vs. other ace highs, and for future hands.
I think this is a busted draw betting a lot. Significantly more often than it's a hand that beats Ace high, ie a Q or a 9.
Of course I would never EVER make this bet unless I think he'll fold Ace high a decent amount of time. If I were to list his most likely hands, in order, it would look like this:
Ace high
Underpair
Small flush draw
Straight draw, or King high (KT, KJ, TJ, etc)
TT/JJ
9
Q
Quads or something
For the record, I play AK or AJ exactly the same way, too.
Wang
QUOTE (Shimmering Wang @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 3:18 PM)
Raise is surely right, 100% of the time. There are much worse hands we will raise here, too.
In the games I play, I am pretty sure all but the best and worst players fold with just Ace hi, here. Some will bet it, to save half the pot vs. other ace highs, and for future hands.
I think this is a busted draw betting a lot. Significantly more often than it's a hand that beats Ace high, ie a Q or a 9.
Of course I would never EVER make this bet unless I think he'll fold Ace high a decent amount of time. If I were to list his most likely hands, in order, it would look like this:
Ace high
Underpair
Small flush draw
Straight draw, or King high (KT, KJ, TJ, etc)
TT/JJ
9
Q
Quads or something
For the record, I play AK or AJ exactly the same way, too.
Wang
In the games I play, I am pretty sure all but the best and worst players fold with just Ace hi, here. Some will bet it, to save half the pot vs. other ace highs, and for future hands.
I think this is a busted draw betting a lot. Significantly more often than it's a hand that beats Ace high, ie a Q or a 9.
Of course I would never EVER make this bet unless I think he'll fold Ace high a decent amount of time. If I were to list his most likely hands, in order, it would look like this:
Ace high
Underpair
Small flush draw
Straight draw, or King high (KT, KJ, TJ, etc)
TT/JJ
9
Q
Quads or something
For the record, I play AK or AJ exactly the same way, too.
Wang
Cool. Nh then. Bad can mean a lot of things, and your likely-hand ranking puts it in a more accurate perspective. I wouldn't make this play against someone online that just had "bad" pokertracker stats, unless you had a hand ranking like you just wrote out.
i posted this where you cross posted it.
i can't figure out what villian has. nothing makes sense. i can't think of a hand he could have in this spot that we wouldn't at least tie with.
this just boggles my mind. i guess you're left to your read.
maybe he's got 55, 99, or QQ and was slowplaying. those are the only hand that makes even the slightest of sense in the situation.
i agree it's probably a busted draw. but even still it's a stupid way to play a draw.
if you think he'll fold an A then it's probably a c/r. but the ace betting is terrible so it doesn't make a lot of sense either way.
i can't figure out what villian has. nothing makes sense. i can't think of a hand he could have in this spot that we wouldn't at least tie with.
this just boggles my mind. i guess you're left to your read.
maybe he's got 55, 99, or QQ and was slowplaying. those are the only hand that makes even the slightest of sense in the situation.
i agree it's probably a busted draw. but even still it's a stupid way to play a draw.
if you think he'll fold an A then it's probably a c/r. but the ace betting is terrible so it doesn't make a lot of sense either way.
QUOTE (Shimmering Wang @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 12:18 PM)
Raise is surely right, 100% of the time. There are much worse hands we will raise here, too.
In the games I play, I am pretty sure all but the best and worst players fold with just Ace hi, here. Some will bet it, to save half the pot vs. other ace highs, and for future hands.
I think this is a busted draw betting a lot. Significantly more often than it's a hand that beats Ace high, ie a Q or a 9.
Of course I would never EVER make this bet unless I think he'll fold Ace high a decent amount of time. If I were to list his most likely hands, in order, it would look like this:
Ace high
Underpair
Small flush draw
Straight draw, or King high (KT, KJ, TJ, etc)
TT/JJ
9
Q
Quads or something
For the record, I play AK or AJ exactly the same way, too.
Wang
In the games I play, I am pretty sure all but the best and worst players fold with just Ace hi, here. Some will bet it, to save half the pot vs. other ace highs, and for future hands.
I think this is a busted draw betting a lot. Significantly more often than it's a hand that beats Ace high, ie a Q or a 9.
Of course I would never EVER make this bet unless I think he'll fold Ace high a decent amount of time. If I were to list his most likely hands, in order, it would look like this:
Ace high
Underpair
Small flush draw
Straight draw, or King high (KT, KJ, TJ, etc)
TT/JJ
9
Q
Quads or something
For the record, I play AK or AJ exactly the same way, too.
Wang
Im a good player and I would never fold ace high here. I would never bet it when checked too, but thats another story. Your line is so ridiculous that i would have to look you up. River sexys induce calls. To me it would like you were trying to overcompensate for a counterfieted midpair, which along w/ a straight draw is the only thing you are folding out here, which is why I would c/c on this river. This river is a just a horrible spew. Pfr is not even debateable. Easiest raise ever.
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 11:16 AM)
Aw Wangy...
Why are we making plays at a bad player?
than you confused me when you stated this;
we should encourage him to come along so we can outplay him postflop.
Why are we making plays at a bad player?
than you confused me when you stated this;
we should encourage him to come along so we can outplay him postflop.
obviously, we can't play "tricky" with bad players, and try to "outplay them" since there "Bad"
If these players, don't fold to a c/r or raise. Then what were you thinking?
I bet flop, and c/f the turn UI. Find a better spot to put in your chips against these players.
QUOTE (Knight_Owl @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 8:44 PM)
obviously, we can't play "tricky" with bad players, and try to "outplay them" since there "Bad"
Outplaying someone does not mean to play tricky vs them.
QUOTE (Knight_Owl @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 8:44 PM)
obviously, we can't play "tricky" with bad players, and try to "outplay them" since there "Bad"
If these players, don't fold to a c/r or raise. Then what were you thinking?
I bet flop, and c/f the turn UI. Find a better spot to put in your chips against these players.
If these players, don't fold to a c/r or raise. Then what were you thinking?
I bet flop, and c/f the turn UI. Find a better spot to put in your chips against these players.
When did I say this player wouldn't fold to a c/r?
QUOTE (Shimmering Wang @ Thursday, December 14th, 2006, 8:53 PM)
When did I say this player wouldn't fold to a c/r?
Come on, dude. If we don't know this guy specifically and you say "bad", I don't know of one person that I know just "ok" or worse than "ok", that I also consider bad, that would fold for one more bet on the river unless he has complete air.
Haven't read replies...
With a read like "button is bad" I think you're trying to get too tricky against a bad player here. IMO, you're almost never ahead here and a "bad" player isn't very likely to fold to this bluff. If he's a good and/or tricky player capable of making laydowns, maybe, but I hate it against a "bad" player. I think bet/fold and check/fold are both acceptable lines on this river, but I lean toward check fold. A bad player isn't likely to laydown even A-high here.
With a read like "button is bad" I think you're trying to get too tricky against a bad player here. IMO, you're almost never ahead here and a "bad" player isn't very likely to fold to this bluff. If he's a good and/or tricky player capable of making laydowns, maybe, but I hate it against a "bad" player. I think bet/fold and check/fold are both acceptable lines on this river, but I lean toward check fold. A bad player isn't likely to laydown even A-high here.
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