Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 8 8
UTG folds, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 5 K 8 (10.67SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, CO raises, Hero...

Plan?

I don't have PT stats, but CO is sooooo loose-passive, his raise really confounds me here. MP1 hasn't done anything to make me notice.

Ok, so standard questions.

Preflop - Anyone hate my raise here? Standard AP table with a few LPs thrown in.

Flop is interesting... I want to hear lines, and reasons, and plans for turn and river.

Also, for anyone interested in why I'm in a 3/6 game already (simo)... only 2 1/2 games were going, and zero 2/4 games, and this table was sooo juicy with the CO here, and there was another donk earlier, who capped me pf with 55 vs my AQ, and bet every single street on a like all overs, lol.

Anywho, hook me up. How do we maximize value?

I'd just go ahead and three-bet the flop. That's more likely to hook in MP than waiting to to raise the turn, and we may yet get a cap from CO who likely has some raggedy two pair or maybe 55.

If we do get capped, we probably want to raise the turn instead of waiting for the river in case MP's on a draw especially since he will likely be committed to the pot at this point. I wouldn't worry about top set unless both the flop and turn are capped and we still get raised on the river.

I just ****ing ****ing ****ing ****ing ****ing hate being out of position. I go ahead and raise when the action gets to me. COs action means he's awful, no matter what he has. MP2 might come along, but whatever. Easy 3-bet, in my mind.

3 town is a must. Pf is standard.

Why can't CO legitimately have AK here? That doesn't seem too unreasonable.

As far as the hand, definitely 3 bet. Personally, I lead any turn even if it was capped on the flop. Being out of position, if you check you can't be certain CO will bet if checked to cuz he might have a flush draw. Hm, wait you said he was passive, so that makes a draw unlikely. Even so, lead the turn so you can 3 bet if he does have two pair or 55.

I suppose AKo is the one hand he could have that isn't sucky.

Without reading replies, I like the raise preflop...

I like to lead the flop here because of the diamond draw and don't mind if MP raises. I put in as many flop bets as I can. The way it was played, a check/3 bet looks really strong which may now cost you some action on later streets. But, I don't think you should just call either, because of that diamond draw, so you have to 3-bet at this point if you've checked I think.

If they just call the 3-bet, I lead any turn card. If MP caps it, I check to him on the turn and hope to check raise both opponents. If CO caps it, I think it's a lot more interesting for what we should do on the turn, since it would be bad if it checked through. I think if CO caps it, I just lead out on the turn.

Be prepared to call a raise on any diamond turn, oh, and abandon the check/raise line if MP capped the flop and the turn is a diamond. If a diamond does hit the turn I try to keep the pot small and see a showdown if I don't fill up on the river.

Ok, one thing I do when I'm playing a hand is I react. If I was playing this hand, the only reason I'd be checking the flop would be so that I can check/raise. Therefore, my reaction would be to follow through with my check/raising plan and 3-bet the flop.

You don't have stats posted on CO, but based on the read that you gave (unless he like never raises) I put him on a hand like AK, K8, maybe 55 most of the time, as opposed to KK. I just don't see that being all that likely. He could also be one of those silly players who waits to raise with AA, so that's possible too. Overall, I'm not really sure but I think we're probably ahead here so I'm 3-betting.

It's hard to say what I'm doing on the turn and river b/c there are so many variables, but I'm pretty much never folding this hand, unless it's on the river, there's a flush on board and we end up in the middle of some raising war b/w MP1 and CO. Otherwise, I'm in for the duration and probably putting in more bets somewhere.

Haven't looked yet so...



Raise was table-dependent. I like it if you think you can outplay nearly everyone postflop. Absolute tables are a bit tight though, and obviously we want to have a big pot to play a mid-pair in, so I might've chosen to limp, especially with some LP's in the mix.



I'm 3-betting flop all day. The raise looks like a value or isolation play. I'm leading/raising all day unless a 3rd diamond hits, in which case I'm c/c or folding depending on the heat.

Please lead the flop. Nobody's 3-betting/calling a 3-bet with absolutely no piece of that board.



Why is playing 3/6 an issue, Zach?

Underolled, and playing on a stake, for anyone following my most recent bankroll issues. If you go to micro limit strat, you'll see I have a ton of 1/2 posts. BR is pretty well solid for 2/4 now though, so more shots at 3/6 should be coming soon.

preflop is fine.

i'm amazed at the suggestions to check/3-bet here. the board is not draw-heavy considering the preflop action, and most hands are down to 2-3 outs. AP does not have that many tables going, and zach is going to run into these opponents again. what other hand does he raise/call, then check/3-bet here? KQ? doubtful. maybe KA, but KA is the only hand that pays him off.

cold-calling is not wonderful either, but at least then they can put you on KJ-KA easily, a flush draw, or other hands if they don't know zach like we know zach.

depending on exact reads (the CO's AF is of key importance here), i either lead or check-raise the turn, and reraise if i get raised.

edit - CO being passive hurts a bit, since he probably has a K or flush draw here, and may check behind turn. i still think metagame is important enough at a smaller site like AP to not check/3-bet the flop, though with a passive CO, it may cost us half a bet.

depending on the turn card, i either lead or check-raise it

Anybody bet out ont the flop? I think that's what I usually do here. On a draw heavy flop, I go ahead and 3 bet when raised. On a safe flop, I go for a c/r on the turn(I don't think we lose much b/c if opponent check behind on the turn we can assume they're pretty weak anyway). But this line may only work for some players since I come out betting on a variety of flops even when I don't have the lead.

Not in this spot. You would be betting directly into pf 3better who would shut out the other player w/ most hands.

With this much action a 3 bet on flop is a must. We need to quit guessing whether villains have draws on draw heavy boards with lots of flop action and just pound away. You cant be losing much, but you could certainly be giving away alot.

Games I play, its unusual for more than 2 sometimes 3 players to go to the turn anyway so I guess I wasn't worried about the pot being just heads up going into the turn. I was just trying to think of the best way to get the most money out of the pf 3bettor. And to be honest, I don't mind the pot being heads up. But I do see the merit in trying to c/r mp to trap the bets in between.

He has a big hand so if you cr it will either get 3 bet, in which case you get to 4 bet with the straggler getting stuck for at least 1 of those, whereas with your line, straggler folds and you get 3 maybe 4 out of villain but still lose at least two out of straggler. Also he might wake up w/ AK or AA on turn.

Well, the guy who raised the flop FOLDED on the river.

The 3-bettor had AK and called me down when I led the turn and river.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 8 8
UTG folds, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 5 K 8 (10.67SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: 9 (9.83BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River: 3 (12.83BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO folds.

Results:
Final pot: 14.83BB
Hero Shows 8h 8s
MP1 mucks Kh Ah

why show that much aggression on that flop? if villian has kings ur gonna lose money no matter what...why not hit them on the turn? with ak the villian will always bet the turn and you hit them with the c/r for a few more bets...just my opinion

NH Zach.

Some of my thoughts:

When Hero checked, he was expecting the flop to go:
Hero Check, MP Bet, Button Call, Hero Raise, Both Call.
This would be obtaining maximum value.

Button's flop raise was unexpected.
And we have to re-analyze our plan at that point to see what's best.



Relative position is the important thing to focus on here.
With a big hand, we want to maximize value from both opponents.
Check-raising allows the button to get caught in the middle.
Leading out often faces him with 2 bets and gets him to fold.
If Button were the preflop 3bettor, I would lead out this flop.

If Button is willing to call along all the way to the river while drawing almost dead to our set, we have to give him a chance to do so!
That is just too much value to miss out on.
There is no reason to try to shut out the players who are hopelessly behind while isolating the ones that may pose us the biggest threats.



The problem with waiting for the turn to show aggression is that the turn very possibly could get checked through.
And that would be unforgivable.
Many villains will raise the flop for a free turn card.
And if Button was raising the flop with a marginal hand to isolate against the PFR who may have whiffed, then he will likely slow down and check the turn after both of his opponents called.

After seeing results, it looks like this may have been the case.
Button folded on the river before showdown, meaning he did not have as strong of a hand as he implied with his flop raise.
Thus I think it is likely he would have checked behind both of you on the turn.


Preflop raise is standard.
Checking the flop is standard.
3betting the flop is probably best.
And full agression thereafter is warranted.

The only other play I give consideration to is check-cold calling the flop... and then leading out on the turn.
My goal here would be to make sure we don't lose MP on the flop.
And then try to catch him in the middle on the turn.
But this play is likely too fancy.
Because MP is probably willing to call 2 flop raises and hang with us anyways (as he did).


I think you played it well.

--CM

CM makes a good point about relative position on this flop. Leading out blows.

The most likely occurance would be the PFR betting, the loose passive player calling, and me raising, that's about the worst that can happen here.

i like calling flop and donkbetting turn. we get in extra bets if he has 2p and raises us again on the turn, we defend against draws getting free cards, and we keep the 3rd guy in every time.

this only gets problematic if the turn fills the flush. but still, i probably bet out and see what's up.


i like this line a lot in general when i'm OOP, fyi.

Yeah, I really don't take this line nearly enough, especially against weak players who don't think about the action behind. I'm usually not a fan of call/lead lines, but given the way this hand has played so far- and the fact that many players read call-lead lines as weird/weak- I think it might be best now, but I'm not sure.

Only problem is, there are a bunch of turn cards that could either kill our action, and I MP and CO are calling the flop 3-bet for sure, but one or the other might fold to a turn lead no matter what rolls off. Plus, if somebody wants to cap, we might be losing even more value. If CO or MP caps, we can just lead anyway on the turn, and play an even bigger pot.

Wang

Too many action killing cards on the turn for the call/lead line, IMO.

i dunno. if CO is as lp as you say here, he's got a monster of some kind to raise the flop. i think we get raised a lot on a non-diamond turn and with the third guy in it gets profitable if that happens just 1/3 of the time or so. since diamonds hit less than that on the turn, i think it's a profitable move. but that really depends on what you think CO has here and what he'd do with it. i was just going by "very loose passive" which made me think he had 2p or maybe even 55, both of which raise the turn a lot.

I like the idea of just calling. Kings, AK, flush draw,,,he could have either or any and is going with you the whole way no matter WHAT you do. Limit the pot size is the best bet in this case as there are too many ways to lose this hand, imo.

That's awful advice. Our equity in this pot is, quite obviously, gigantic. If this were a NL game, would you rather two players move in behind you, or have both players fold??

The answer is the former, and you want this pot as BIG as possible.

Wang

Uh... that's really not the right way to look at a limit hand.

whoops, i totally misread the preflop action. i whiffed on the 3bet pre.

now i REALLY like calling/donkbetting.

i like cold calling almost entirely because the 3bettor 3bets there a lot of the time (i'm assuming AA or AK if he 3bets the flop after a cold call) since we look so much like a flush draw by cold calling. we then get to cap the flop, which i do if it's back to us.

if we do cap, obv we have to lead the turn so the donkbet becomes a moot point (unless a thinking-but-not-super-smart player would read a cap/check as an obvious flush draw 3way), but if we check/3bet the flop here we show so much strength that we definitely settle down hands that would otherwise think they're ahead.

Obv im a NL player. lol! still learning...........

ISAL.

lol, well, it's definitely an NL mentality. Although, with a set, and in this particular hand, even if it was NL, I'd be much happier with a big pot, than to keep it small.

Who is the CO?


PS: you missed out on some huge donaters at the 5/10.
Definitely worth playing higher than normal. No way you have a big downswing.

90/10/0.9 and 70/50/1.5 right beside each other.
First guy is super honest, the second guy is a total maniac.

They had about a grand between them.
palomino and i basically took it all in about 30 minutes.