FCP Poker Forum > 3/6 Live

Zach6668

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 11:19 AM

OLG Casino Thunder Bay 3/6 LHE (10-handed)

Zach is UTG with A

K

. Table image is that I'm good, TAG, but they don't care, they'll still call 2 cold with pretty paint, etc. Table has been really loose.

Pre-flop:
Zach raises, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 3 folds , SB calls, BB calls

Flop (10 SB): Q

J

6

(5 players)
Hero bets, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, BB raises, Zach calls, MP2 3-bets, BB caps for $11 (all-in), Zach calls, MP2 calls

Turn (10.5 BB): 6

(3 players | 1 all-in)
Zach checks, MP2 bets, Zach calls

River (10.5 BB Main | 2 BB Side): A

(3 players | 1 all-in)
Zach checks, MP2 bets, Zach calls

Final Pot: 10.5 BB Main | 4 BB Side

beans422

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 11:53 AM

Yuck, the call raise line that mp used almost always mean big hand. I think we're drawing dead by the turn.

Actuary

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 12:22 PM

I don't lead the flop, generally, there. (and that was my thougt before the action)
Can I presume MP would 3-bet QQ/JJ preflop?
If MP is not ultra passive preflp, I like your line.
You beat QJ now, and had 10 outs on river to beat QJ.
THat 6 is great for you vs a player that would raise QQ/JJ preflop.
BB. I supose would do this with Qx and worse. Would he raise QQ/JJ preflop as well?

QJ = 9 combos. QQ/JJ = 6 combos total

hmm. If BB has Qx, then MP3

QJ = 6 combos, QQ/JJ = 4 combos

How did you find a converter for live games?

Zach6668

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 1:14 PM

Every player at the table, with the exception of 1 or 2 of the old *** nits would reraise QQ, and most of the time JJ.

The only hand I could put him on that I was dead to was 66, and mayyyybe JJ the odd time.

I lead the flop because I usually have 10 outs and thus equity in a multiway pot.

Also, obv thank our friend Cobalt for the converter.

aim786

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 2:24 PM

QUOTE (Zach6668 @ Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 1:14 PM)

Every player at the table, with the exception of 1 or 2 of the old *** nits would reraise QQ, and most of the time JJ.

The only hand I could put him on that I was dead to was 66, and mayyyybe JJ the odd time.

I lead the flop because I usually have 10 outs and thus equity in a multiway pot.
Also, obv thank our friend Cobalt for the converter.

Really? I think your A/K outs are tained very often on that flop. Checking on the flop is better imo.

Zach6668

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 2:46 PM

QUOTE (aim786 @ Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 5:24 PM)

Really? I think your A/K outs are tained very often on that flop. Checking on the flop is better imo.

Meh, occasionally. The thing is, these guys have a HUGE range, and KJ, KQ, AQ, AJ, K6, A6 make up a small part of it, simply due to card combos.

I should also mention that I even have the best hand at sometimes, and random Ax hands will call this flop since they hold that precious ace, and they'll be drawing to 3 outs.

beans422

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 6:55 PM

I've seen players smooth calling with a wide range of hands including AA, KK, QQ and JJ. Still in this situation, we should've been looking at villain's response upon seeing the turn card. Part of the advantages of playing live is you can make your decisions easier with physical tells. No use getting too far in a marginal situation when we could pick better spots. I'd fold on the turn.

Actuary

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 7:02 PM

QUOTE (beans422 @ Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 6:55 PM)

No use getting too far in a marginal situation when we could pick better spots.

early in these tournies, I'm cool with going too far with marginal hands as I'd prefer to get a decent stack and a loose image, so my other hand later on once blinds go up can be paid off.

so, I'd prefer to not wait for a better spot here

Now if this were a cash game I'd agree.
Because in cash games, you should pass up marginal spots to take the more significant +EV ones only

beans422

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 9:16 PM

QUOTE (Actuary @ Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 7:02 PM)

early in these tournies, I'm cool with going too far with marginal hands as I'd prefer to get a decent stack and a loose image, so my other hand later on once blinds go up can be paid off.

so, I'd prefer to not wait for a better spot here

Now if this were a cash game I'd agree.
Because in cash games, you should pass up marginal spots to take the more significant +EV ones only

This IS a cash game, no? "3/6 live"?

Actuary

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 9:20 PM

QUOTE (beans422 @ Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 9:16 PM)

This IS a cash game, no? "3/6 live"?

are you being sarcastic?

beans422

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 9:49 PM

QUOTE (Actuary @ Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 9:20 PM)

are you being sarcastic?

Are you?

Actuary

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 9:53 PM

QUOTE (beans422 @ Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 9:49 PM)

Are you?

am I ever?

MrNiceGuy

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 10:01 PM

I think the flop bet is the only questionable decision. Without knowing the flop action, I'd guess you have something like 6-7 outs here, as when you make a pair, there's a good chance your opponents will make 2-pair or a straight. You'll almost surely need at least 3 callers in order to have an equity edge. So I doubt you get value from a bet. It might still be worth betting for deception, though, and it could save you from getting jammed (although it didn't here).

I think it's a close decision. As long as your opponents would view a continuation bet from you as probably being strong, I think betting for deception is probably your best play, since you would be calling bets anyway.

beans422

Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 10:58 PM

QUOTE (Actuary @ Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 9:53 PM)

am I ever?

When have you ever not been?

Knight_Owl

Sunday, December 10th, 2006, 12:20 AM

Do they have any 1-2 or 1-3 nl structure games at that place?

I took a shot at 3/6 yet, even though the tables were juicy, It was just frustrating at the same time.

I gave a shot to there "Big Game" 1-3nl and same horrible players, lots of cheap flops, yet they will call 3 barrels of $30 to $60 and $100+ on the river with just Top pair!

yet, theres always those few that try to play a bit tricky.

Bubba83

Sunday, December 10th, 2006, 1:30 AM

This hand is tough for me, I'm not sure what I really think about it yet. It sucks that we get stuck calling in a capped flop, but I think we have to. As for the initial lead out, I don't think I do it either. I'm check/calling but I don't know how many I will fold for. Maybe I'd check/call 2 small bets but not 3? Of course, a lot of the time I'm calling 2 small bets cold it's going to get 3-bet/capped anyway, so it's tough.

Once the pot is so large on the flop, I think check calling on the turn is fine. Also check/calling the river when you hit any Ace or King is fine.

What's your line if we spike a 10 on the river? Raise/Fold? Raise/Call? Just call?

Zach6668

Sunday, December 10th, 2006, 7:32 AM

QUOTE (Knight_Owl @ Sunday, December 10th, 2006, 3:20 AM)

Do they have any 1-2 or 1-3 nl structure games at that place?

I took a shot at 3/6 yet, even though the tables were juicy, It was just frustrating at the same time.

I gave a shot to there "Big Game" 1-3nl and same horrible players, lots of cheap flops, yet they will call 3 barrels of $30 to $60 and $100+ on the river with just Top pair!

yet, theres always those few that try to play a bit tricky.

lol, no, only 3/6 limit. The game is juicy and extremely beatable, despite everyone thinking it's bingo.

QUOTE (Bubba83 @ Sunday, December 10th, 2006, 4:30 AM)

This hand is tough for me, I'm not sure what I really think about it yet. It sucks that we get stuck calling in a capped flop, but I think we have to. As for the initial lead out, I don't think I do it either. I'm check/calling but I don't know how many I will fold for. Maybe I'd check/call 2 small bets but not 3? Of course, a lot of the time I'm calling 2 small bets cold it's going to get 3-bet/capped anyway, so it's tough.

Once the pot is so large on the flop, I think check calling on the turn is fine. Also check/calling the river when you hit any Ace or King is fine.

What's your line if we spike a 10 on the river? Raise/Fold? Raise/Call? Just call?

I probably c/c the river even if I hit a straight. Villain either has a set/boat, or two pair here, IMO. We beat 2 pair, it's the same has hitting our A or K on the river, in terms of our relative strength.

*********

Villain shows QJo, and I pwn.

Actuary

Sunday, December 10th, 2006, 11:40 AM

QUOTE (Actuary @ Saturday, December 9th, 2006, 12:22 PM)

QJ = 9 combos. QQ/JJ = 6 combos total

hmm. If BB has Qx, then MP3

QJ = 6 combos, QQ/JJ = 4 combos

me too.

Zach6668

Sunday, December 10th, 2006, 12:05 PM

QUOTE (Actuary @ Sunday, December 10th, 2006, 2:40 PM)

me too.

I never saw BB's cards, either, btw.

CoranMoran

Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 9:20 AM

QUOTE

I think the flop bet is the only questionable decision

I won't bet the flop with AK on a QJ board vs 4 loose opponents when out of position.

What good can come from it?

--CM

Actuary

Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 11:12 AM

QUOTE (CoranMoran @ Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 9:20 AM)

I won't bet the flop with AK on a QJ board vs 4 loose opponents when out of position.

What good can come from it?
--CM

Well, if we're not raised and all call, and we have 8 outs, that's cool.
I usually don't bet it either

Zach6668

Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 11:29 AM

QUOTE (CoranMoran @ Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 12:20 PM)

I won't bet the flop with AK on a QJ board vs 4 loose opponents when out of position.

What good can come from it?
--CM

See, I bet a lot on these flops when I have a gutshot + overs. We have as many as 10 outs, we almost certainly have an equity edge here 5 handed.

The odds of it being raised are small at this table, as well, btw. Usually we get calls from a Q, a J, other gutshots, etc.

I don't know about these ranges, but:

CODE

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

   2,473,992  games    14.190 secs   174,347  games/sec

Board: Qs Jd 6h
Dead:

            equity (%)      win (%)    tie (%)
Hand  1:    24.9992 %      24.38%     00.62%      { AhKc }
Hand  2:    27.0855 %      25.18%     01.90%      { TT-22, AQs-AJs, KTs+, Q2s+, J2s+, AQo, KTo+, Q2o+, J2o+ }
Hand  3:    27.0684 %      25.17%     01.90%      { TT-22, AQs-AJs, KTs+, Q2s+, J2s+, AQo, KTo+, Q2o+, J2o+ }
Hand  4:    10.4394 %      09.64%     00.80%      { random }
Hand  5:    10.4075 %      09.60%     00.80%      { random }

and if we take out two players who folded, as in this spot:

CODE

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

  11,340,139  games    18.346 secs   618,125  games/sec

Board: Qs Jd 6h
Dead:

            equity (%)      win (%)    tie (%)
Hand  1:    29.1414 %      28.99%     00.15%      { AhKc }
Hand  2:    35.4360 %      33.29%     02.15%      { TT-22, AQs-AJs, KTs+, Q2s+, J2s+, AQo, KTo+, Q2o+, J2o+ }
Hand  3:    35.4225 %      33.27%     02.15%      { TT-22, AQs-AJs, KTs+, Q2s+, J2s+, AQo, KTo+, Q2o+, J2o+ }

I don't know. It's too hard to put these guys on ranges based on PF here, since we don't know any of the flop action when we bet.

Against 4 random hands:

CODE

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

   3,041,004  games    14.160 secs   214,760  games/sec

Board: Qs Jd 6h
Dead:

            equity (%)      win (%)    tie (%)
Hand  1:    29.2990 %      28.21%     01.09%      { AhKc }
Hand  2:    17.6540 %      16.70%     00.95%      { random }
Hand  3:    17.6891 %      16.73%     00.96%      { random }
Hand  4:    17.7116 %      16.75%     00.96%      { random }
Hand  5:    17.6463 %      16.69%     00.96%      { random }

or even, say these guys play 40%:

CODE

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

   3,713,666  games    32.677 secs   113,647  games/sec

Board: Qs Jd 6h
Dead:

            equity (%)      win (%)    tie (%)
Hand  1:    20.4185 %      19.02%     01.40%      { AhKc }
Hand  2:    19.9120 %      18.78%     01.13%      { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand  3:    19.8874 %      18.77%     01.12%      { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand  4:    19.8612 %      18.74%     01.12%      { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand  5:    19.9210 %      18.80%     01.12%      { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }

Actuary

Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 12:38 PM

Zach,

obv, be careful using that as it does not allow for worse hands to fold.
When an Ace/King comes you may still easily be behind, and likely not getting a lot of action from the Qx/Jx. You could also be against AJ/KJ now..etc.

Zach6668

Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 12:49 PM

QUOTE (Actuary @ Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 3:38 PM)

Zach,

obv, be careful using that as it does not allow for worse hands to fold.
When an Ace/King comes you may still easily be behind, and likely not getting a lot of action from the Qx/Jx. You could also be against AJ/KJ now..etc.

Yeah, I know. Just throwing those numbers out there.