after 6500 hands i was +10ptbb/100....now at 11k im - 0.78. This is way too much money over a small sample to just be a bad run, ive got to be doing something really wrong that im not seeing.

We'll start with PT stats and work from there.









Just a warning, I'm going to start posting a lot of hands in the coming days, most of them will probably be ridiculously standard but i need an outsiders POV regarding some things i may be missing.

I don't consider myself a PT authority or anything, but you might possibly be defending your blinds with a less than optimal range. I realize we're short-handed and all, but this isn't Limit. You can get away with letting people steal your blinds if you're stealing your fair share. The problem with defending with such a wide range is that you're going to be taking the worst of it card-strength and position-wise.

Based the percentages that you've provided, I've got you defending the SB with any suited ace, some mediocre suited kings and queens and all the way down to A8o/K9o/JTo. Those hands can easily get you in trouble. In the BB, I've got you defending with almost any suited King/Queen and lots of unsuited rag aces. Again, asking for trouble...especially at these levels where just playing good cards and position without getting too tricky will make plenty of money.

TAG in the blinds/EP and somewhat LAG near the button is my best suggestion.

If you want to post some more stats, your action on the flop following a pre-flop raise (from you or others) would be helpful.

Lets see if this helps. These are my stats is the same game over almost the exact same sample size (if anyone wants to comment on mine go ahead too):






There is a pretty big differnce in our stats, most notably you seem to play a bit tighter preflop, then more agressive on the flop, but more passive on the turn and river. Your pf raise % is quite higher then mine too. What I'm thinking your doing here is opening with a larger range of hands (small pairs and suited connectors?) And because your won $ at SD % is quite lower then mine, as is you turn and river agression factor, you are calling down too many hands.

Suggestions: your missing a lot of value, you need to raise or fold more on the turn and river. Also, I think your trying to steal blinds too much. I know there is a lot of talk on this forum about the need to steal blinds particularly in short handed games. But I dissagree and think there is plenty of money to win post flop.

You may have a point with the blind defense....i did switch over from 6max LHE where you're always fighting for blinds.


Actions following a PFR:


Raise: 6.11% (60 out of 982)
Bet: 68.02% (668 out of 982)
Call: 5.4% (53 out of 982)
Check: 14.66% (144 out of 982)
Check/Raise: 1.12% (11 out of 982)
Fold: 4.68% (46 out of 982)


I think those include hands where someone else raised preflop as well but, im not quite sure though...

I would like to see your the top window on Misc. stats. I think the main problem that I run into is I stack off with one pair way to easily.

I'm also not an expert on PT since i just started using it.

But just from looking at the info, You seem to be losing way to much in the BB.

this is probably because you are investing money since you're

A - in the BB and have money in the pot alreayd, and its cheaper
B - when you hit the flop, you're either leading out, or calling too often with marginal hands. Learn to fold Top pair. especially in the BB.

also, it might not be the case, but from hte stats it looks like perhaps you're losing money by raising too many hands preflop that arent hitting and paying off.

I have a 9BB/100 win rate at 6handed NL and my win at showdown is only 49%, but thats because a lot of times i'm losing weak showdowns, but am winning big hands when it counts

50% isn't to bad at 6 man.

JJ, I could've told you that you had switched from Limit, considering your blind defense. In particular, it looks like you're betting out big or raising a bet postflop from the blinds, trying to pick off c-bets. While I like to do this occassionaly, when I did it often it hurt, and I noted the much less-hurt that came from folding marginal hands in the blind or giving it up if i didn't hit the flop hard.

Yea, the differences in our stats from the blinds is a real eye opener. I'm losing a ton of money compared to you in that area. You're probably on to something with my turn and river agression too. I'm probably missing a lot of value in the name of pot control....I find myself betting the flop, checking the turn, and either betting or check/calling the river with hands like top pair because i dont want to be playing a huge pot with that kind of hand. I'll definitley try to dig up some examples of this and post some hands.

What i'm really interested in is how you play so many more hands preflop with such a lower PFR than me. You're right...I am raising any PP from just about any position, and i do open raise a lot of suited connecters.

I assume you're playing some one gappers and things like that from LP when you have a few limpers ahead of you? I'm interested in seeing what kinds of hands you're playing that I'm not or vice versa.

See, i thought i did this a long time ago, but i've been making a conscious effort not to be a c-bet monkey every time i raise preflop. I'm still working on picking my spots better there..

Oh yeah...does anyone know how to quote more than one person at a time instead of replying to each of you individually?

Just press the Quote+ button at the bottom of each post. I would suggest that you continue to post hands, even ones that you win. Also, in smaller stakes nl, there is NO need to get tricky or try to pull moves on people. Pretty much you can play straight up poker, and crush the game.

yeah, but playing like a bot is no fun I get what you're saying though, like someone said above....i do take too many shots at the preflop raiser with various kinds of hands trying to pick off c-bets.

Thanks for all the help so far guys, im gonna go dig up some more hands i probably played like an idiot...

Value betting is so key, and don't forget to play your hands fast. Also, apparently overbetting is the new value bet, so watch out.

There are some really knowledgable people on here, who will certainly be able to help you improve your game. It's also really helpful to comment on hands posted by other members.

ugh. i'm disgusted by this.

no offence, but value betting is key when it creates value for you. lets not just throw out ideas that might get dangerous
and fast hand playing shouldnt even be an issue. there are no tells online about people who play fast or slow.
You should be mixing up your game accordingly, Fast play is the new slow play is ridiculous.
You still need the other person to have or make a hand to pay you off.

I folded 2 pair on the turn yesterday to a fool with a set because of how aggressive he played it.
there was 2 of the same suit on board on the flop and thats how i knew he wanted to chase flush draws out, but instead, he chased out a hand he had dominated that would have payed off a few bets to him

I don't think you should be raising any pocket pair from any position, that is a leak.

Royal, you need to realize that we are not the majority of online players. We are definitely in the minority here, and are able to get away from TPTK or bottom two pair. Most people aren't. In low-limit cash games, there is NO need to mix up your play. This sounds like "it's alright to limp AA utg sometimes" type of advice. No, it's not. Bet your hands, and force them to make mistakes. As far as your example of a set pushing you off of your two pair, well that's what he is supposed to do. Sounds like he played it right, and you made a good laydown.



I said that I will open raise any pp from any position in shnl, not full ring.

I know a lot of players that will disagree with you. Full ring, obviously. 6max, no.

22-66 in early position have been big leaks for me in the past even at 6max, maybe I just play them bad though.

It's true that your postflop decisions will factor into this, but I ALWAYS open raise with any pp in shnl. If you don't flop a set, and get played back at when you make your c-bet, well then you go from there. This is where your reads and analyzing the flop texture really come into play.

I know ChrisRichey feels strongly the opposite about this, and I'm not saying he is wrong, just that I personally play small pairs differently. I will generally limp/call, and have had very good results with the strategy. Basically just playing them for set value, small pairs have been some of my biggest money makers online.

As for another leak, this is something I had, is suited connectors. Looking at my biggest lossing hands hands like JTs and 78s, were always at the top, so I have of recently tried to take them out of my game. I just havn't found them to be profitable, and caused a lot of chaseing. I think I was calling off too many chips also, when I would flop top pair with a lesser kicker.

On that same note though I do ussally raise with suited Ax, in shorthanded games, this still seems to be profitble.

I couldn't really tell from your stats, but another thing about preflop is I never reraise except with QQ-AA. Especially AK and AQ, I used to lose so much resaising with these, in fact AKo used to be my biggest net looser for awhile. Flat calling reaise preflop with AK has drastically improved my game.

I understand, and I fully agree, however there are plenty of players at lower limits that understand enough to play with basic skill type thinking.
These are the ones i'm talking about. we all make money from the fish, but to trully start crushing the games, you need to make money from all players who are beatable.
And, the limp UTG type of playing is tricky.You're correct that we shouldnt group these together, and thats not what i meant originally.





I fully agree to this.

and I hate the raise A,x idea. Only if its goin to be HU, or vs a loose passive player.

I think with small pairs, it's more about post flop play. When you raise and hit a set, stacking is much more likely than if you limp and hit a set. The real trick is making the times you don't hit a set as profitable as the times when you have to fold to resistance by effective use of the C-bet.

EDIT: To not be a beatable player, you need to do both (limp and raise with small pairs) =)

If you want general rules, I think it's A8 for 5 handed and A9 or A10 for 6 handed as a minimum marginal UTG raising hand (assuming you can play post flop and get away from TPBK).

Ax suited is only profitable if you have folks who can't fold to an obvious made flush draw.

In full ring, I'd generally agree with you. In SH, I think you really need to be re-raising with a wider range against certain opponents or you risk becoming too transparent. If I think someone's opening too many pots, I've got no problem "restealing" in a cash game.

Of course, you definitely need to be able to beat ALL of the players in the game, including the ones who are above average, but I was starting a little lower here. Not saying OP is a beginner by any means, but that it helps to first focus on playing ABC poker, learning how to play certain hands in position, value betting, analyzing flop texture, and developing reads on opponents.

As far as open raising any pp pf, again I am talking strictly about shnl, and I do this mainly because I think it's very important to be aggressive. For the most part, I think c-bets are very effective, but position is vital when playing a more laggy style, which I believe is necessary in shnl.

Raising with Ax is not something I do. Occasionally I will raise with Axs, but I prefer A2-5s as it obv has straight and flush draw possibilities. I sometimes will limp with A6-9s, depending on the table, but am only usually playing for 2p, trips or the flush.

To tell you the truth, I will actually open raise most sc's, some one gappers, and all suited broadways. I definitely play a very laggy style, but it works in shnl. Table selection is very important too, as I usually prefer a table of loose/passive players. If the table dynamic changes while I am there, obv I have to switch gears.

Sorry for the rant, I am just really into discussing poker lately since I've had to withdraw all of my money due to work problems, so I am living vicariously through you guys. So win, damnit!




We are talking about shnl here, and in position, I will usually reraise pf with AK. OOP, it really depends on the raiser. I will reraise in any position with JJ+, and sometimes 99/TT depending on the villain. With AQ, I usually call, regardless of position.

It's been stated before, and I agree, players at this level just don't pay attention to these things, and mix up play is not nessacary by it's self, and really should only be used when YOU are makeing plays based on reads of an oppenent/table.

Also earlier I said I raise with Ax suited, I miss typed. Thats true occationally, but mostly limp much like small pairs, or fold depending on the table.

That is a mistake, imo. Do you play full ring or sh?

SHNL hold'em strictly. My stats at this level are on the first page of this thread. I'd be very interested in seeing you post your stats as you seem to play a lot more agressive and looser then me, and I disagree with a lot of the comments I've seen you make. Not saying your wrong at all, as there are plenty of ways to play this game. However, I'm curious what is more profitble.

Yeah, but it's not a matter of "mixing up your play" in this case. A lot of times, AK/AQ or JJ/TT/99 are ahead of opponents' raising ranges. Therefore, why wouldn't you want to get money in as a decent favorite? Also, even some of the most dense opponents are going to see "This guy almost never re-raises" and put you on AA/KK/QQ. We don't want our opponents to be able to narrow down our range that much. And if they really fear that, why not take advantage of the situation by re-raising a number of other hands?

I don't disagree that a LAP style pre-flop can win decent money in these games since most of the money is going to be made post-flop...I just think that it's leaving money on the table that a LAG style can pick up. As for small and medium pairs in SHNLHE, I'm usually open-raising from most positions, but I'll limp every now and then depending on table conditions.

Amen. This is the line that will end up being the most profitable. However, you need to feel comfortable with reading the board texture post flop to play this style. The more comfortable you are doing that, the more likely you will be able to C-bet properly with small and medium pairs and take down the pot.

So I would say, limp a bit more until you feel comfortable reading players and flops. But mix it up either way.

I do have to say that cwik's line may be good at 50NL. I don't know cause I skipped that level entirely finding the play there too tight. Not open raising with small and medium PP in 100 SHNLHE makes you too predictable at 100NL. Adding them on top of the standard raising hands plus some suited connectors and other "favoriate hands" puts you in an aggression level that'll more adequately compete for your fair share of steals (especially on the button and CO).