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DonkSlayer
So I got some money onto Bodog a couple of days ago and got lotsa more money now.

Mostly destroying LAG's. However, I find that I feel like I'm missing out on some money in NL HE and PL O8 when I'm oop on a LAG villain and he's firing/raising his face off. I'm checking rivers a lot, and they're only betting like 25% of the time. Is this just a coincidence or is that very common for a LAG with position, play hard till the river and then check behind with anything marginal? Should I always lead out on the river when I'm 75% or better than I have the best hand against a LAG, even if i've only showing "calling-strength" so far in the hand?

Obviously this doesn't apply to Limit HE as I now own at getting in my value bets icon_dance.gif
James D
Very read dependent I'd say.

Sometimes the check on the river is the perfect play, if you can bring yourself to do it, even with the near nuts.

Many of the better LAGs apply the greatest pressure on the turn... if they get action, they are almost done with the hand. If you're tight, they will have seen that, and they know you're strong.
No_Neck
they are not going to fire the third bullet more than they check behind. I think you also have to consider the amount of time a LAG gets to the river with a hand that has no showdown strength. It is going to be a large percent of the time in which case only small % will fire the third bullet.

I almost always prefer donk betting unless I am pretty sure the villian had nothing, then I check and hope they fire.
darkrider88
If there is a coordinated board, I find the LAG's will sometimes fire on the end to take down the pot if a draw gets there (to represent the draw). Also, if they think you were drawing, they will fire if the draw doesn't get there and they think you will fold.

On an uncordinated board, if you have been calling their bets on flop and turn, then less of a chance they will fire on river.
aucu
A lot of bluffs are more semi-bluffs, so what does the LAG do on the river?

If the SemiB makes it- bet
If it missed- don't bet

Where there is a debate is if you should make a bet or bluff on the river with a week to moderate that will only get called if beat.

I'm rambling.
Fade2241
QUOTE (aucu @ Wednesday, November 8th, 2006, 1:34 PM) *
A lot of bluffs are more semi-bluffs, so what does the LAG do on the river?

If the SemiB makes it- bet
If it missed- don't bet

Where there is a debate is if you should make a bet or bluff on the river with a week to moderate that will only get called if beat.

I'm rambling.


I follow. LAG's that don't know how to read opponents or control spewing are a great thing to have in your game.
mtdesmoines
QUOTE (DonkSlayer @ Tuesday, November 7th, 2006, 1:53 PM) *
So I got some money onto Bodog a couple of days ago and got lotsa more money now.

Mostly destroying LAG's. However, I find that I feel like I'm missing out on some money in NL HE and PL O8 when I'm oop on a LAG villain and he's firing/raising his face off. I'm checking rivers a lot, and they're only betting like 25% of the time. Is this just a coincidence or is that very common for a LAG with position, play hard till the river and then check behind with anything marginal? Should I always lead out on the river when I'm 75% or better than I have the best hand against a LAG, even if i've only showing "calling-strength" so far in the hand?

Obviously this doesn't apply to Limit HE as I now own at getting in my value bets icon_dance.gif


I've been experimenting with LAG on the internet since the entire universe now seems to be playing TAG. (Live games are a different matter -- TP is going to call any bet at many $1/2 and $2/5 NL tables ... ANY bet). Beware live bluffing; it's MUCH trickier. So we're talking internet poker.

You have to isolate scared money and stay away from strong players. Bluffing after the flop requires heads up. Firing successful bluffs ALMOST REQUIRES A PREFLOP RAISE -- FOUR bullets; not three. Without the preflop raise, your bluff carries much less weight.

If my flop bullet gets raised, but my turn bullet called, I sense worry in the villain, and I will be tempted to fire a big bullet on the river ... scare card or not. And if I'm reading turn weakness, THREE OUT OF FOUR TIMES, I will get the fold with a strong bullet on the river. It's incredible.

So whatever happens, I try to say with my flop bet, "I raised with a good hand, and it hit, so now you're just paying me off."

Second note: Last night, I stone cold bluffed a guy out of almost two buyins. He reloaded, hit the second nuts, and called my all in and he typed in "I got you this time." Ironically, I had the nuts. Total cooler for the poor guy. Hate to be in that guys head after that.

That's another benefit of LAG ... you will get calls like mad. People want to catch/bust the bluffer. Being LAG is like being the last kid left on one side in a game of dodgeball. It's fun, and you might make some incredible moves, but you're going to get nailed sooner or later. So, sorry to say, but ratholing is a good way to support a LAG/bluff style.

These are my observations after experimenting. The experience of others who've done it longer may differ.
No_Neck
QUOTE (mtdesmoines @ Monday, November 13th, 2006, 4:01 PM) *
I've been experimenting with LAG on the internet since the entire universe now seems to be playing TAG. (Live games are a different matter -- TP is going to call any bet at many $1/2 and $2/5 NL tables ... ANY bet). Beware live bluffing; it's MUCH trickier. So we're talking internet poker.

You have to isolate scared money and stay away from strong players. Bluffing after the flop requires heads up. Firing successful bluffs ALMOST REQUIRES A PREFLOP RAISE -- FOUR bullets; not three. Without the preflop raise, your bluff carries much less weight.

If my flop bullet gets raised, but my turn bullet called, I sense worry in the villain, and I will be tempted to fire a big bullet on the river ... scare card or not. And if I'm reading turn weakness, THREE OUT OF FOUR TIMES, I will get the fold with a strong bullet on the river. It's incredible.

So whatever happens, I try to say with my flop bet, "I raised with a good hand, and it hit, so now you're just paying me off."

Second note: Last night, I stone cold bluffed a guy out of almost two buyins. He reloaded, hit the second nuts, and called my all in and he typed in "I got you this time." Ironically, I had the nuts. Total cooler for the poor guy. Hate to be in that guys head after that.

That's another benefit of LAG ... you will get calls like mad. People want to catch/bust the bluffer. Being LAG is like being the last kid left on one side in a game of dodgeball. It's fun, and you might make some incredible moves, but you're going to get nailed sooner or later. So, sorry to say, but ratholing is a good way to support a LAG/bluff style.

These are my observations after experimenting. The experience of others who've done it longer may differ.


Good lag is the best way to play no limit IMHO. People can not play post flop very well. They are just starting to catch on to preflop.
mtdesmoines
QUOTE (No_Neck @ Monday, November 13th, 2006, 2:02 PM) *
Good lag is the best way to play no limit IMHO. People can not play post flop very well. They are just starting to catch on to preflop.


So am I playing sustainable LAG?

I'm sick of trading the same 1/25th of a buyin for three hours with the other TAGs.
kes1981
QUOTE (mtdesmoines @ Monday, November 13th, 2006, 1:01 PM) *
I've been experimenting with LAG on the internet since the entire universe now seems to be playing TAG. (Live games are a different matter -- TP is going to call any bet at many $1/2 and $2/5 NL tables ... ANY bet). Beware live bluffing; it's MUCH trickier. So we're talking internet poker.

You have to isolate scared money and stay away from strong players. Bluffing after the flop requires heads up. Firing successful bluffs ALMOST REQUIRES A PREFLOP RAISE -- FOUR bullets; not three. Without the preflop raise, your bluff carries much less weight.

If my flop bullet gets raised, but my turn bullet called, I sense worry in the villain, and I will be tempted to fire a big bullet on the river ... scare card or not. And if I'm reading turn weakness, THREE OUT OF FOUR TIMES, I will get the fold with a strong bullet on the river. It's incredible.

So whatever happens, I try to say with my flop bet, "I raised with a good hand, and it hit, so now you're just paying me off."

Second note: Last night, I stone cold bluffed a guy out of almost two buyins. He reloaded, hit the second nuts, and called my all in and he typed in "I got you this time." Ironically, I had the nuts. Total cooler for the poor guy. Hate to be in that guys head after that.

That's another benefit of LAG ... you will get calls like mad. People want to catch/bust the bluffer. Being LAG is like being the last kid left on one side in a game of dodgeball. It's fun, and you might make some incredible moves, but you're going to get nailed sooner or later. So, sorry to say, but ratholing is a good way to support a LAG/bluff style.

These are my observations after experimenting. The experience of others who've done it longer may differ.


My mouth salivates and I get a hard on when people who think like you play at my tables icon_cool.gif
mtdesmoines
QUOTE (kes1981 @ Tuesday, November 14th, 2006, 8:42 AM) *
My mouth salivates and I get a hard on when people who think like you play at my tables icon_cool.gif


lol, I DO have a nice ***, but I don't swing that way, buddy.

Sorry, you can dry up and go flaccid.
If you're not passive, I won't mix it up with you.
Opponent selection and isolation.
Opponent selection and isolation.
Opponent selection and isolation.
Opponent selection and isolation.
Dogpatch
QUOTE (mtdesmoines @ Monday, November 13th, 2006, 4:01 PM) *
I've been experimenting with LAG on the internet since the entire universe now seems to be playing TAG. (Live games are a different matter -- TP is going to call any bet at many $1/2 and $2/5 NL tables ... ANY bet). Beware live bluffing; it's MUCH trickier. So we're talking internet poker.

You have to isolate scared money and stay away from strong players. Bluffing after the flop requires heads up. Firing successful bluffs ALMOST REQUIRES A PREFLOP RAISE -- FOUR bullets; not three. Without the preflop raise, your bluff carries much less weight.

If my flop bullet gets raised, but my turn bullet called, I sense worry in the villain, and I will be tempted to fire a big bullet on the river ... scare card or not. And if I'm reading turn weakness, THREE OUT OF FOUR TIMES, I will get the fold with a strong bullet on the river. It's incredible.

So whatever happens, I try to say with my flop bet, "I raised with a good hand, and it hit, so now you're just paying me off."

Second note: Last night, I stone cold bluffed a guy out of almost two buyins. He reloaded, hit the second nuts, and called my all in and he typed in "I got you this time." Ironically, I had the nuts. Total cooler for the poor guy. Hate to be in that guys head after that.

That's another benefit of LAG ... you will get calls like mad. People want to catch/bust the bluffer. Being LAG is like being the last kid left on one side in a game of dodgeball. It's fun, and you might make some incredible moves, but you're going to get nailed sooner or later. So, sorry to say, but ratholing is a good way to support a LAG/bluff style.

These are my observations after experimenting. The experience of others who've done it longer may differ.


What's bad is when you're playing TAG, but catching good hands. So you're raising a lot and people think you're playing LAG. Then you bruise their egos by pushing them off of their suited connectors that they wanted to play so bad. All of a sudden the whole table is after you.
eroc824
firing a third bullet as a LAG player requires one of the following: a made hand, a card on the river that allows for a steal(ie straight or flush hitting, sometimes even the board pairing a middle card as that might have been what the LAG was betting), or a good read on the opponent. What i mean by the last one is that some players will call down a LAG player with moderate holding( second pair or TPNK.) Usually if the LAG player was trying to take the pot, he slows down by the river and gives up the pot. But as a LAG player myself, i try to spot the players that are doing this; trying to pick me off when im bluffing/stealing/semibluffing the flop and turn. if i believe the player is doing this i will continue with my move on the river and fire hard making my opponent think "well i guess he has a big one this time" and end up having to fold his moderate-to-good hand. i only do this when i feel my read is strong.

sidenote: having to show a big hand on the river helps greatly with this bluff. if the table sees that u bet all the way and have a monster, they will think the same of this bluff move and will usual fold moderate-to-good hands. And being a LAG player people tend to call me down when i have a good/great hand, so it plays right off itself.
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