I'm new to no limit cash games, so if this was stupid, please be kind...

You're holding AK offsuit; raise 3-4X the BB and get one caller who originally limped. The flop comes JJx rainbow. The caller opens with an overbet of the pot, roughly 40% of the size of your respective stacks (assume both started the hand with equal amounts).

Let's say you assume the player wouldn't have opened quite so aggressively if he was holding a jack or the underfull - so you put him on a middle pair or representing the J with overcards (perhaps AQ).

If he has overcards, you likely have the hand dominated (unless he's also holding AK) - and if he has a middle pair, it's 3 to 1 against hitting one of your outs by the river.

Question - does it make sense to move in here, representing a jack yourself and putting him to a decision for all of his $$, but giving yourself outs in the event you're called by a middle pair?

Made sense to me at the time, so I did. Player turned over pocket 9s, and then said "nice catch" when I caught a king. Seemed like a sensible play to me, but I could be wrong.

Opinions?

Thanks in advance...

No his bet represents a pair.
In which case you fold and help him stack up his chips he just took from you.

So, you're saying there's no fold equity here? There's no way the opener could reasonably lay down a middle pair thinking he's up against trips (or an overpair, considering the pre-flop raise)?

He committed himself to his hand with his raise.

if you know he wouldn't do that with a jack or the underfull, it seems like a fine move to me. you might have the best hand (iffy) or if you don't, you put an underpair to a real test. however, absolute has a point that he's comitted too much of his stack, so he's probably going to call, which you don't want. the point you make about still leaving yourself outs isn't completely relevant if you know he'll call your raise everytime, because in the long run, you don't have the equity to chase your six outs. my biggest concern, however, would be that he actually has a jack and knows that i'm as likely to raise his overbet with AK as i am with AA. if you know that he doesn't have a jack, though, this move is okay, but it's a lot better if his bet isn't such a large part of his stack.

aseem

Thanks, Absolute. I appreciate your input, but I don't agree that he was committed based on his open. It was $0.15/$0.25 no limit with a $15 max buy-in, which is about what we both started the hand with. He essentially bet $6 on the flop, which still left him with about $8 on the table and the ability to reload (unlike a tourney). If he thinks he's dominated by either trips or a higher pair, why would he call with more than what he put in to that point?

point you make about still leaving yourself outs isn't completely relevant if you know he'll call your raise everytime,

Thanks for your thoughts, Aseem. I guess the point is, I believed I did have fold equity there...

If this post was to help justify your decision, I don't know what to tell you.
You should fold.

i think against weak opponents a call there might be more powerful......call his flop bet with the intention of pushing all in on the turn.....weak players assume that most people would slow play flopped trips so if you are looking to make him lay down a pocket pair you can just call that bet and push on the turn......you also have the a or k to hit to make the best hand...just another way to play it

If this post was to help justify your decision, I don't know what to tell you. You should fold.

So much for healthy debate.

/sigh

See, here's the problem for your hand.

He bet into your raise after limping in. AND calling your raise

Meaning he could
1) Have just about any big hand
2) Figure you for AK or AQ and dare you to call

He also knows that if you have been helped by that flop (say you had A-J) then you would just raise and he would fold

I've noticed recently that a lot of people seem to play like they put a lot of raisers on AK. They'll bet out or raise non-scary flops when the pot is bet before them. Either they slowplayed a monster or are rebluffing you

You have to fold I think, even if you A or K hits you could be behind slowplayed AA, KK, QQ or AJ, KJ, etc

ha, its plenty healthy.

here, ill explain rather than just barking commands around.

Since you didn't give starting stacks, let's say you each have $100 with 2-4 blinds.

You raise it to 12, he calls. This puts $28 in the pot.

You have AK, he has 9-9.
Flop comes J-J-x

He bets out $40.
If you push in, for 48 more, it makes the pot like $158. And he has to put 48 more in.

You are giving him more than 3 to 1 on a call where he is a 3 to 1 favorite. Certainly he won't think he is a favorite when you make the move, but he only has to be ahead 1 in 3 times to show good profit here.

Your villian will call here 1 in 3 times.
Just like he did in your game.

I think its an easy fold.

weak players assume that most people would slow play flopped trips

That's an interesting statement. Weak players generally slowplay flopped trips consistently, but I don't think it makes you a weak player to assume that weak players will do so...

what is meant by that statement is that a weak player wouldnt give someone who pushes on that flop credit for a set....i think a lot of them would assume the person is trying to buy the pot....or in my experience this has been the case

Thanks, Absoulte. Well stated, and point taken.

Like I said, I'm learning...

what is meant by that statement is that a weak player wouldnt give someone who pushes on that flop credit for a set....i think a lot of them would assume the person is trying to buy the pot....or in my experience this has been the case

I know what you meant... but let's face it, that's the case a majority of the time - particularly at the lower limits online. When most players get hit with the deck, they slowplay their hands. A better player won't automatically (and usually won't) do this, but acknowledging the general trend and reacting accordingly doesn't make one a weak player, IMO...

Now, if an opponent has demonstrated that he's a capable player and you don't take this into account when he represents strength on a given board, well... that's a different story...

im not trying to say that if on makes this play he is a weak player.....im trying to say that weak players asuume someone will try and slowplay a stong hand and generally won't give credit when someone pushes like that.....i just think that calling there and then pushing on the turn would give a weaker player a greater sign of strength....if your idea is to get him to lay down a smaller pocket pair

NYIsles: I think you are correct in your approach to this thinking.

Considering fold equity in situations like this is the sign of a good player.