Naked_Cowboy and I are having an argument about this hand...


FCP $30+3 NLHE MTT (9-handed)

Cobalt ~T1,500
UTG ~T1,700

Blinds 10/20

Cobalt is BB w/ K K . No reads.

Pre-flop:
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Cobalt raises to T220, UTG re-raises to T420, 4 folds, Cobalt ?

pooooooooooosh

UTG might put you on a steal with all those limpers who acted before you. I probably call here and then push any non ace flop.

By just calling preflop, UTG has to widen my range whereas if I push preflop, he probably has me on AA/KK.

Against AA, it plays out the same but I might get a call postflop from worse hands that would have folded preflop. I'll take that despite the risk of UTG having a weaker hand that outflops me.

You now give your opponent a shot at taking you off of the hand if an A flops when they might have QQ or nothing at all.

When I play online MTTs, I don't pass up opporunities. You're gonna need chips. I'll take his here. I think waiting to see the flop is bad. If he has TT and flops a T, but would've folded preflop to your push, you've made a huge mistake. The same thing applies if he has AQ and the flop comes down Axx or QQx.

If you're gonna get your chips in, do it preflop. I think at lower buyin tournies, you just go broke with KK against AA if that's how you find yourself. Don't try to overthink it.

I push here and hope for the best.

If this is a low $ tourney with players calling allin with a wide range, then pushing is probably better.

However, against a decent player, I want to get value for my kings and if I push preflop, he can pretty much put me on aces or kings and fold hands that I want a call from.

He could have QQ/JJ and the flop comes 9 low. or he has AQ and the flop is Q high. I think that it's more likely that we are ahead then behind postflop and can get more of his chips. And we don't have to push the flop, if we think that he'll bet the flop no matter what if we check and the flop is uncoordinated, then I don't mind check/pushing him.

I shove
I think that play gets the most chips against the most hands.
Most TT+ hands call a push preflop anyway at $30.
AQ too, I think.

I push this and lose the 70/30 to AQo, in my experience.

I have lots of notes on people that read "LRRs with QJo" and such. I don't fear the LRR much these days.

I’ll bet you the reason he posted this is because he pushed (like he should have) and the other guy had AA.

Pros almost never lay down KK before the flop – so why should you?!?

I agree with this completely. People call w/ such trash at the low buy-in's it's easier to push w/ KK and hope nobody turns over AA.

Cobalt posts all sorts of hands for all sorts of reasons.
I would hesitate to pigeon hole him.

Push. He's got TT, JJ, QQ or AQ and you're way ahead.

My bad. I guess I'll wait for the point of this thread then...

I still hate UTG LRR's even though people do it with more and more garbage lately.

Still, I'm going broke with KK every time - the number of times I'm up against AA is far, far outweighed by the times i'm against trash.

This is actually one significant factor that I was considering.

Pre-flop, we're calling 200 into a pot of 730. If we call, we've committed over 1/4 of our chips.

Let me provide my line and NC's line...


Cobalt's Line:
Pre-flop:
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Cobalt raises to T220, UTG re-raises to T420, 4 folds, Cobalt pushes


NC's Lines:
Pre-flop:
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Cobalt raises to T220, UTG re-raises to T420, 4 folds, Cobalt calls

#1:
Flop (T930): x x x
Cobalt checks, UTG bets more than T930, Cobalt goes all-in

#2:
Flop (T930): x x x
Cobalt checks, UTG bets less than T930, Cobalt folds

#3:
Flop (T930): A x x
Cobalt checks, UTG bets, Cobalt folds


Now one of the main reasons that he supports these lines is that he's played a significant amount of tournaments on OnGame and feels that the players are predictable enough where these are profitable lines. He said he feels a little insane saying that on other poker networks, he'd support my shove.

huh?

he's folding KK on an xxx flop for a bet of 500 ?
So he thinks they over bet weak hands and value bet or slow play monsters?

I need NC to actually post in here that he folds KK on an xxx flop given stacks and pot

Those have got to be read based lines...

That was my feeling also. Hard to judge bet-sizing "in general". And he could very well make a "milking" bet with QQ in that spot...since he wouldn't put me on AA/KK.

Anyway, villain did happen to have AA here, and I'm still not convinced my line was wrong. NC needs to come on here and defend his argument.