I hate all these threads, and I told you guys i would try to figure out a way to make folding kings a possibility, or at least a thought

My guide to folding Kings preflop. Lezz rock.

For the sake of this, no one has any reads on anyone at the table.
you have K K

With reads n/a we put player as average.

Their push preflop range (PPR) for over 150+BB's will be AA, KK, QQ AKs AKo. (more than fair)

with 2 kings gone, the possible combinations for them are as follows:

20% / 80%
A A
A A
A A
A A
A A
A A

2% / 2% (tie 96%)
K K

80% / 20%
Q c Q d
Q c Q h
Q c Q s
Q d Q h
Q h Q s
Q d Q s

65% / 34%
A c K c
A s K s

70% / 30%
A c K s
A d K c
A d K s
A h K c
A h K s
A s K c

Our total here is a winning rate of 69.6% (round up to 70%)
if we take out QQ we have a combined win rate of 55%


our ROI is 2:1 and we are a 2.3:1 favorite Not bad, but lets look further

Part II When that 69% edge looks like 6%

When you have equal or greater than 150+ BB's in these situations.

- You are the 1st raise keeping in mind standard will be anything thats 6BB's and under.
You are raised all in for all your stack which is (150+ BB's)
My thoughts, too much risk for return. fold it

- There is a preflop bet, you raise, you are re-raised, and 1st bettor pushes.
I fold. even though the pot looks tasty, this much action and you're drawing slim. without investing too much

- preflop bet, you raise, you are re-raised all in by the original bettor. its HU. you invested more than the 1st situation since you were the raiser and not the bettor. But you showed strength and villain still pushed his chips in.
@ over 150+BB's i fold to the extreme strength from villain.

Now please. Everyone use this against me, know that i will fold kings if i think you're tight and you forced me to call over 150 BB's preflop.

God Speed.

Vote Royal.

Paid for by the Royal_Tour Foundation

I'm getting a different equity against this range. I'm not sure why.




Pokerstove

You're saying its 57% vs any arrangement of AA,QQ,AKs AKo and KK?

i didnt put much double checking into any of my math, so ya, maybe i'm wrong

Yeah.

I thought i'd put this before anyone else does:

"Duhrrrr I have KK I will never fold, if he has AA then so be it"

Paging DrawingDead...

Folding KK pre-flop is a lot like getting max value when you flop quads. It happens so rarely you really don't need to worry about it. I think you'll see more royal flushes in your lifetime than good opportunities to fold KK pre-flop.

KK is the second most profitable hand in poker and you see it once every 221 hands. Quads happen much, much more rarely.

Yeah, but you are running kings into aces only once every 14 times you get them, or something like that.

Why does it have to resort to the Odds of AA vs KK?

why cant it simply be the idea that you have been raised all in for all your money preflop in a manner that gives you a strong feeling you're beat.


on a board of KKA2A and you hold K,Q. and you're pushed all in, how many of you call?

I've had KK vs AA about half a dozen times that I can remember, I've never had a royal flush.

also, If anyone is stil interested, i wanted to bring up another issue.

we all remember when Negreanu told us he folded Kings preflop, and felt it was a huge mistake because the guy had QQ, but he said he felt so strongly that the guy had AA that it seemed like the correct move.

So why is it that a professional player who started at 18 and has played everything and every level, in almost every situation can think of folding KK?

If KK really plays like AA, shouldnt he have autocalled? i mean the guy does have more experience under his belt than anyone in this strat section.
I'm pretty sure KK, vs AA isnt anything new

KK is the 2nd best starting hand in Holdem. It says nothing about profitablity of the hand.



It's different with KK preflop because we KNOW FOR A FACT that we are beaten by only one hand and there are others which can reasonably play strongly (ie, AK, QQ) back at us when we raise.

On the board you talk about, having KQ is no different than having K3o. You are beaten by any A, by 22 and you're only tying anyone with a king. It seems HIGHLY unlikely that you're capable of winning the hand so it becomes a clear fold.

In the other situation, folding KK preflop is difficult for people because they say "I beat everything except one hand."

Playing one weekend in the PP 750K guaranteed (before the million was weekly) I found myself pretty deep into the field, about 150 out of 1700 were left and I had a chip stack of about 150K when the average was about 55K. I found KK in the SB. An UTG player made a standard raise and a guy with a chip stack that covered mine pushed all in. It folded to me and I had to decide what to do. I decided that although I could easily fold and have a great chance to win or final table, folding here would be wrong. I called off a stack that was almost 2.5 times the average and got shown the AA that I figured was very likely for my opponent to have.

Some people simply refuse to fold the hand preflop. Others (like me) are perfectly willing, but haven't found the right circumstances yet. I don't look for reasons to call, but I also hate putting money in when I feel I'm behind, regardless of how strong my hand is.

2,2 wouldnt beat a K. board is K,K,A,2,A

2,2 is counterfeit on this board. as any K, or A beats 2's full.

anyways, back to the original point. what i mean is up to the river, You've invested chips.
The river brings another A, giving you K's ful of aces, but an A, will give villain Aces full of Kings.
The pot has been built to this point and villain pushes.

Now, how do we know he is pushing with an A or with the last K?
if we fold thinking we're beat, we lose our invested chips. If we call we can chop, we could win to a bluff, or we can lose to 1 of the two remaining aces.

this is the perfect example of info, and position.

why cant this be applied to preflop play?

So far the only reason to call any all in preflop regardless of the situation is because its only beat by 1 hand.

So is everyone ok with the idea that KK and AA is the exact same hand until the cards flip? now hte odds of getting the best starting hand in holdem has just increased. instead of 6 variations, there is now 12

First of all, ignore my stupidity about 22.

Second, I really don't think it's at all reasonable to try and equate preflop and post flop play. There are more betting rounds post flop. There is more information available. Also, you know what the potetnial of your hand is. If you're calling a bet on that board, you can't win. You're calling to get your chips back, but most likely you're calling to lose more of them.

I know and undestand the distinction that you're trying to make. I still don't think that preflop play can be matched up with post flop play in a reasonable analysis. Your last line should say a lot though. If I have a bad feeling that I might be beaten when I have KK and my opponent holds AA, then I might fold. If it's TWICE AS LIKELY that he holds the hand that beats me, it makes it TWICE AS EASY to fold. Doesn't it?

This may be a little simplistic but I'll throw it out there. In this scenario it seems to me that throwing KK away is as simple as throwing away any other hand. I mean think about the number of times you receive that kind of preflop pressure against your KK and the number of times you will be right and run into AA.

It seems that laying the hand down when you receive that kind of pressure in that scenario will pay for itself in the long run when you have KK against a dominated hand.

Sometimes we put too much thought into hands preflop when in reality, its still just another hand. We see hundreds of them a session and sometimes the same ones multiple times. Of course, youd like to have KK or AA every hand and win with them every single time but it just wont happen. This seems to be more of a question of timing more than the ability to lay it down. We should all be ABLE to lay this hand down. Id much rather have KK in a spot where Im not suspicious of running into AA.

I guess it depends on your poker philosophy, goals, experience, and skill, more than math.

just my 'toosense'