Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $14.55
UTG+1: $21.90
Hero: $87.85
MP2: $29.15
MP3: $114.80
CO: $45.25
Button: $13.45
SB: $53.15
BB: $50

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with K K
2 folds, Hero raises to $2, MP2 folds, MP3 raises all-in $114.8, 4 folds, Hero...?

Can I fold NOW?!?!

Ugly. Any read?

Without a read I sigh and call. With a read, I probably still sigh and call. I have seen that move from AA, but I've also seen it from AK, QQ, JJ, and any number of other hands. Could even be the case KK.

I absolutely hate this situation and I really want to say fold, but I've seen stupid moves often enough to make it a call.

That sucks bigtime. You are both pretty deep. Like simo said, I really can't fold this. I probably start thinking about folding if I were >250 bbs deep.

You both are pretty deep here and the big stacks at the table. I can fold this but probably wouldn't here.

Yes Fold. (i'm sick of the Dont fold kings preflop garbage now)

This situation is just stupid, easy fold. christ you're playing .25/.50 there is no need to risk such a ridiculous amount preflop when you only invested 4bb's
does villain really do this with anything but AA?
AK no. QQ no. KK and AA thats it. give him the 2 dollars and say, "KK?? good hand?" and I'l bet he lets you know if it was AA. most guys do

How often do we get sucked out on by 1010/JJ/QQ/AK here?

And, for the OP, were you raising to $2 consistently with big hands? I know some players who, consciously or not, raise less with huge hands than when they raise with AK/JJ, etc.

2 seems standard.

70% - 30% for KK vs AK

80% - 20% for KK vs QQ

So suckouts are getting better odds to stack us than we getting only a little better than 2:1 to hope we don't lose.

I don't think this big stack makes a move like this without AA, unless he's a huge LAG. It's not a bad move to try and get another big stack to make a mistake with QQ/KK/AK. We fold and move on.

I fold but I am a *****

the only reason to fold here is if you don't like money, if you have a moral objection to taking money from retards, or if you've read a thread where the player has stated he is using the 'smash method.'

his range is a lot wider than AA here, at a 0.25/0.50 game, and you are in great shape against the other hands in his range. that's all that matters. its a cash game, so you can always reload, so forget what you have invested or any other factors.

do you really think he even plays AA this way? he probably has AK or something, and doesn't know how to play it against someone else with a stack.

call. if possible, call twice.

we all know his range can be wider than AA. and we all know its .25/.50
we also know KK is the 2nd best starting hand.
But playing AK that way is just an assumption. We can also assume he pushed with AA because he doesnt know how to play it post flop if 3 of 1 suit come, or if the board pairs etc...
I'd say 60% of the online population feel that AA always loses for them.

These situations remind me of slot machines You ever notice how u always get soo close to the tripple BAR jackpot, it never fuking hits though.
and with KK here, you're so close to the Nuts, and can win so much money, ooooo. i wanna call so bad..... baargh!!!11!!1, fuk it. i call.

AA?? i knew it.. oh well. i gota call right.. i mean KK vs AA just coolered, blah blah.. I'm putting a stop to this. I'm saying NO against KK auto calls prelfop.

Vote NO.

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You make some thought provoking arguments and I am interested in subscribing to your newsletter.


I want to say fold, but I just can't get the thought out of my head that a player that shoves for 230xbb after a 4xbb raise will probably be insane enough to do that with AK, QQ or JJ, or maybe something ridiculous like AJ.

/shrug

If I've seen him do it before with AA, then I'd fold. If I'd never seen it before, I think you should call.

It's just a matter of opinion and you can do some math. Assign him 3 possible hands. AA, AK or a pair under KK. We'll assume that he won't do it with anything else. Just assign the possiblity that he has each of the 3 holdings, calc your EV and see where you wind up.

After investing only 2$ and having to call $85 more, nobody's gonna give you a hard time for folding KK. Just don't tell anyone at the table.

edited and
QFT.

how much you have invested is a nearly meaningless term. in fact it is completely meaningless, except how it relates to other, more relevant aspects.

i wouldnt say that.

This question can only come up during a NL game. we assume the max buy-in was 50 at the table.

Lets now add another aspect to our decision. Time.

- did we just start?
- have we played for hours and are looking to call it a night?

I know this shouldnt affect our decision to call all in with KK, but if you've been grinding for a few hours and are up almost double your buy-in, is it not more attractive to take your winnings.? winning battles wins you the war.

Or i guess, you could be up agianst aces, and lose the battle, but you havent yet lost the war.

I think its more situational here. if this was for 800.00 @ 2/4 NL. I'd stil take the exact same issues into consideration.

I've been playing xx amount of hours. I'm up double my buy in. a all in loss right now wont hurt my roll, but i'd rather end the day up.

+ side is you can call hoping his range is much wider than AA / KK and look to hit a nice pay day. Is this getting greedy? should we even consider greed in poker? if its a game of mixed skill and chance why do we try to pretend like its all straight forward?

vote NO

that entire post ignored the correct fundamentals of poker. you don't play to have a winning session, you play to make the correct decisions. you know this.

i know.

and I'm starting a revolution.

I lost KK to AA twice in 24 hours. and both to people who came over the top and pushed me all in.
for a reasonable price i insta called. but for my whole stack after only investing 2% of my chips. I would feel sick.

I hate fundy's. I want to live!! Wont YOu LET ME LIVE!!!

without reads, I think this is a call too. I've seen this move too many times with out AA. Have you gotten into any pots with this guy recently? If this is the case I lean even heavier to calling.

no read on him? I think you should fold, unless you feel like gamble...his name wasn't smasharoo was it?

This guy is a 24/15. I've been at the table only a few hands, but those are pretty aggressive stats.

I too have seen this too many times from people who "hate jacks, or queens" the occassional AK (but usually not this deep).

Results:
AA, was there any doubt?
Btw, if it's any consolation, we both got our set on the flop, he would have gotten all my money anyway.
Next time, I'm folding this.

Yes, you play to win moeny and you do so by making correct decisions. Not all correct decisions are based solely on what's going on at the table. It might not be the way the game should be played, but it is often the way the game is played.

I think that in this case, when ti's big stack vs big stack, that bet is made with AA more often than not. I think the main point to consider is that you're not going to be ahead often enough here to make this profitable considering you have no pot odds whatsoever.

well, this was obviously AA by the wording, and we've now gotten confirmation. I simply disagree though - this is not 'always' AA by any means - its often TT-QQ or AK that the person doesn't know how to play postflop, or wants to sucker you into calling with a coinflip type hand.

I do agree on your first paragraph, in the sense that someone might not play their best due to time or session constraints, but I can only say that if that is the case, its something the person needs to practice until it is no longer effectual.

I had a similar situation not too long ago. I open for 4BB, couple folds, villain pushes for 80 BB or more, I call immediately (holding AA), her AK sucks out on me with broadway.

Yeah, she wasn't a huge bigstack at the time. Just saying that micro donks do this with AK (and sometimes win).

Umm, thats not at all similar.

but. thanks.

I call.

Some of the ideas in this thread are really tainted, it seems, by personal experience, where the results and sample sizes are not nearly large enough to matter, as well as the results of this hand.

- Zach

I really don't get the don't ever fold KK crowd, then when they say that you're being "results based" by saying it shoulda been in the muck preflop.

I folded KK preflop ONCE, made a thread about it, it was of course up against aces...and I got hammered for it. I was being "results based" due to the one hand I was right....

Sometimes this game is about more than statistics and percentages.
If you have KK, $2 in the pot, facing a raise for the other $85 in front of you,
and feel the guy has AA, or even AK and don't feel like racing, because you
think you can get it in later at a better price, then fold it....No shame in that.

The answer, apparently is just not to tell anyone about it, cuz till they're IN that spot, they can't understand the thought of folding it preflop.
I know I couldn't, till I did it. There were probably 10 times that I SHOULD have folded it when I "just knew" but stubbornly didn't....No longer.

Well after reading numerous post about how not to call with KK and to call with KK I'm going to give my $0.02.

Anyone here remember Smash's Theory?

Push with all sets.

Push w/ AA & KK.

Could this "fisherson" be applying this theory? I guess we'll never know.

I think one thing that is over looked is that at the micros, players give a TON of information, that is their weakness. You can safely make bigger laydowns at the micros than at the medium-high stakes.

I posted a thread a few months back where it was just the opposite. I had AA up against a super tight player with a 2% PFR or so. He raises, I push, hoping that he adheres to the "never fold kings" mentality. He folds after timing out and claims to have had kings (which I entirely believe given his stats and play).

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 57.1906 % 54.62% 02.57% { KK }
Hand 2: 42.8094 % 40.24% 02.57% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 69.0187 % 67.91% 01.11% { KK }
Hand 2: 30.9813 % 29.87% 01.11% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 72.1879 % 71.46% 00.73% { KK }
Hand 2: 27.8121 % 27.09% 00.73% { 55+, AJs+, AJo+ }

In a .25/.50 nl game online, the third range is probably closest to the correct range you can put your opponent on. Folding is terrible. Royal, stop making people dumber.

thats ridiculous.

You cant judge players by their limits.

you judge players by their play and stats.

how do you know villain doesn multi table 50nl 6 handed, instead of 100 or 200 nl 2 handed???

So I guess the Villan just needs to go all in every time preflop until the OP finally hits aces?

right, cuz that makes sense at a full ring table, where he wil play several other players.

And let me guess, by way of "magic" our villain knew that hero had KK?

cuz i dont know about you, but if i end up mucking kings preflop, i will do so without showing.

no. what's ridiculous is limiting an opponent's range to AA and AA only.

I know it's comical, but he said "I thought so" in the chat box when I flipped over kings. I don't know how he thought anything to be honest.