Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
7 players
Converter


Stack sizes:
UTG: $82.75
UTG+1: $37.10
MP1: $40.50
Yorke: $49.75
Button: $63.60
SB: $19.50
BB: $58.20


Pre-flop: (7 players) Yorke is CO with A K
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Yorke raises to $2, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.


Flop: 5 K 9 ($6.75, 3 players)
UTG+1 bets $6.75, MP1 folds,
Yorke....?


I think this depends a lot on UTG+1's stack size. Considering his size, what's our move, what do we think his range is, why, etc.

Raise to 15, and fold to a push?

If he reraises our raise to 15, it will be a reraise of 20 into a pot of about 55. Does he have a set here more often than AK for us to fold?

Anyway, the real question is the following:

Yorke Reraises to $15

UTG+1 Calls

Turn: 8 ($36.75, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $9

Yorke...?

There are several different factors to consider. Any read on the opponent? Is he tight etc. He called a $15 raise, was he getting correct implied odd's to make this call? Even if he wasn't, would he still try to hit a draw?

He leads into you, if he has hit his draw this is not the standard way a player at this level would generally play this hand. You raised the flop for $15, about 30% of your stack committed, the abc play would be a check raise. Did you have any reason to suspect that he would lead into you trying to represent a hand?

It is a strange bet in relation to the size of the pot. Maybe he hit trips on the flop? Decided to slow play them, then felt the turn was a scare card, therefore put out a feeler bet to gauge your reaction

Considering the size of the pot i may call the turn, maybe call the river if he made it cheap enough. Alternatively, you could min raise and see how your opponent reacts. If he pushes all-in prob easy fold, even if the opponent is a maniac, this is a very dangerous board for TPTK.

The super-sweet play I see all the time now when a villain flops a set is to bet out, call the raise, and then lead the turn again. It's not an awful move b/c it's pretty confusing, but I've almost never seen it happen and that person not have a set. It's not a block-bet lead because the board has flushed.

If no one was watching, you could fold and not tell anyone

So we're thinking he either has a set (which beats us) or a flush (which beast us). Sounds to me like we're folding the turn, right?

Also, does everyone agree with the raise to 15 on the flop? Anyone raise more or smooth call?

Well, I'm just a big slick-overplaying-donk, but I've seen this play with Kx as well as a set or a flush.

I think you have to fold the turn, like you mentioned. Villian is likely leading with a hand that has us beat. I don't like to smooth call the flop becuase you want to try and see where you are at. If you smooth call and he leads the turn, you are in no man's land on the turn. By vilian raising the flop, having a club hit on the turn, and still having villian lead is showing he is strong. You got this information by raising the flop, so I say good raise, no smooth call. I'd rather pay for information on the flop for cheap then be calling a big beat on the turn/river for more.

UTG + 1 limps then calls. MP1 is no longer a threat after the flop.

UTG+1 leads out. given the level, the game, and the lack of info on players and table style, UTG does not have a Set.

regardless of the board having 2 clubs, this is either a 2 pair hand, or a K,Q K,J hand.

I dont see a set leading out. especially when u raised preflop.
I dont see a flush draw semi bluff this, because he is out of position if any raise comes from you.
A pot size bet here from UTG +1 after a limp / call is a couple things. K,9s / K5s or K,Q KJ suited or not.

I like the raise to 15. He only calls so this gives us info. the club turn could not have helped him if he leads out for 9. He's making this small bet to see if you just call or not.
My thinking here for 9 dollars into the 36 dollar pot is he has K,x possibly a K,9.
Now at that level 7 handed i'd normally push. But because I'm confident on my read, and almost certain we have villain beat unless he has the 9. I'm only calling, making sure another club doesnt hit.
If no club hits then i'm pretty confident we can call any river bet

I think this sounds about right. At the lower limits, you might be surprised how many times someone turns over a hand that has no business in the pot like Kx when it can't possibly be good. It'd be nice if you had the club to go with your hand so that you could push, knowing that if you're behind then you can improve to the winner.

I don't think he leads out with the set on the flop and if he did, then he'd put you on AK or better and reraise you right there. I think a likely hand that's not being considered is KQ, KJ or KT with a club, even something like K7 or K6 with a club where he has a flush draw and gutshot. He could have 2 pair, but if we push, he might fold fearing that WE have the flush. We can also redraw to beat 2 pair, but if he's got a flush or set, we're drawing dead.

Becuase the hand played out so weird, I think I like to push here. If I had a better read, I might fold, but the bets just don't make sense. My curiosity about his hand leads me to put money into the pot...

shovel flop.

- Jordan

read further down tard.

raise to 15, turn is 8 of clubs.

UTG leads for 9

in the op he was asking about flop play, I'd shovel and make him put in the rest of his $35 stack or whatever.

if you just call/raise to $15 and the str8 and flush card gets there I fold with no re-draw.

but this is $50nl so you could argue stick it in again and watch your hand be good over KJ/KQ.

- Jordan

This is how I like to play a flush draw in NL. Bet the flop, call a raise and lead out if I hit on the turn. I’ve seen people play sets like this but it’s not that common. I reraise on the flop with a set knowing that AK will be more willing to get it all in before any draws connect.

Either way I think you’re beat on the turn and you have to fold w/no redraws. That bet to me screams that he has you beat and wants to protect his hand.

What does he put us on that he's worried about protecting his hand?

What does a 9$ bet protect against? We're getting like 5-1 which is more than good enough to redraw to the nut flush or a boat IF we put him on a flush and actually had one of those redraws.

I think his bet is retarded unless he has the nuts and he knows we're drawing dead.

Yeah “protect” was not the correct word when describing that bet. Value bet was what I should have said. I didn’t take into the account of the size of that bet either. My bad. The bet could be a weak lead for a set but either way I think we are beat. Only a small amount of the time he is going to have KQ or KJ so a fold here is the best play.

Yeah, I'm glad you said this. This is what I think the right answer is overall. Neither of us are deep enough that if it turns out he has a set it'll ruin my life. If he has a FD, or a pair and a FD, or something like that, it's obviously the right play. If he has AK, it's obviously the right play. If he has KQ, I still like it. He could end up convincing himself that I'm semi bluffing and that his K is good and end up calling, and it eliminates the stress of a Q, J, or club falling on the turn.

Looking only at the flop, are others cool with a push?

No. Basically you're closing your eyes and praying you get called by a weak K or draw.
You really have no idea where you are in the hand.

there isnt enough info here.

Bingo!
Plus, in NL you want to be making bets that make sense. Pushing that many chips into the tiny pot is retarded because when you get called, you're likely to be drawing slim or dead. When he decides to put his chips in, I'd say that only 10% of the time is he going to have a hand that you're happy to see, like a weaker king or something like that. Every other time he turns over a set, and you're drawing to runners, or he turns over a flush draw, which you don't mind, but he's still drawing live.

I like the line you chose, but I think that his turn bet requires you to go all in becuase it seems too weak and retarded.

Your info comes from the previous hands you've played against this opponent. Does he lead out into the preflop raiser when he flops a set? How about a draw?

If we call the flop, we have 20 percent of our stack in the middle of the table. If we raise, the smallest acceptable raise is going to have 40 percent of our stack out there. With these numbers, we really can't buy our information. We need to already have it and to act appropriately.

Knowing a skilled player from a donkey is easy to spot when you're decent. Trying to know how he will play certain hands in certain positions is close to impossible.




So now you have narrowed it down to push or fold on the flop???

because you have TPTK you're ready to push, but because he bet out you're thinking fold?

I'm completely lost on how you play No Limit cash games.

FYI, after the 2 preflop, the 6.75 is 14% of hero's stack

i really don't see what is limp calling preflop in EP and leading the flop at this level that beats us. i would play 99 that way on occassions here but I mix it up how i play my big hands.

i think our info comes from our reads and betting pattern here. i'm pretty TAG in cash and I push this flop. Not saying that is correct but just my opinion after logging 30K hands at this level.

I swear I think this is KQ off

KQ,KJ is my thinking also. But given that he made a pot size bet, he's looking to get called, not pushed in.
Villain folds to a flop push, and if pushing out players that we feel we have beat is the best thing to do, then i'm gonna go burn my copies of HOH, SSHE, and SS1


Somethig else that has me puzzled now the more i thin about it.

Villain called the flop raise. If villain felt strongly enough about his/her hand why didnt he push after the raise.
called 17.00 after the flop now with 20 left.
Then leads for 9 on the turn.

My thinking now is its possible he/she had A,9 clubs. for mid pair / flush draw./1 over card.... or something similar.

the 9 dollar lead out on the turn is just confusing as hell

just shove the flop and don't worry about it. he's not deep stacked and you should not be getting away from TPTK in these kinda spots, especially at 50nl.

go post this on another forum and see what they say if you dont think I have any relevance here.

Shoving/raising 60% of this guys stack, should get the picture to him. If he wants to play, it's going to be for his entire stack. He bet out the flop only leaving himself like $30 behind, so w/e, riase to $15, riase to $20, or just push, they essentially are all telling him you want his money in, whether or not you actual push or bet say $20 instead of $10 more that covers him shouldn't matter.

this isn't one of those spots where both hero and villian have 200+bb stacks and there is an actual thought process to the hand.

- Jordan

I guess I'm not illustrating my point well enough. I think what I'm saying is we're making our decision on the flop because we don't have the stack to buy the info you want us to buy. We're not deep enough.

And if you think I have a fold in me here, you haven't read enough of my posts.

No one is questioning anyones relevance.

The idea here is to help each other out. Using 50nl and TPTK to justify the push isnt helpfull.

for example now (not saying Yorkie would) but a few months down the line we see a post that says "Online is rigged, i cant win etc..." and then people reply with "well stop pushing with TPTK".

and we've seen this before. If you cant play AK with a flopped K in 50nl, then good luck trying to play it at 2-4 No limit.

If i was in this spot @ 50nl with my current BR, and my style of play, I'd push this on the flop too.
But i dont play 50nl, so I'm trying to put it into a 2-4 nl game where my stack would be 390.00 vs villain with 270.00 etc...

uhm, plenty of idiots playing 400nl too. I'm usually not trying to find an excuse to fold TPTK on this kinda board...obvoulsy I look at how opponent has played past hands which goes into my thinking.

im just saying, most of the time, you are good here, regardless of what limit youre playing.

---

although, if you think he has say...a pair + fd and you dont want to gamble..then yes...just call and get the money in on the turn blank...i dont know if that's the line you're suggesting? but that takes have a prior good read on the opponent as well.

- Jordan

Simple one guys!

You raised preflop he called.

You raised his bet on the flop he called.

he bets into you AGAIN

How much more information you need? Would any of you keep betting into a guy that has raised you like this with any hand that doesn't beat AK?

C'mon people!

I really don't like the raise to $15. The flush draw is getting great odds and you are pretty priced in to call a push on flop, so you are not really getting the info you need to make good decisions later.

I would either push on flop like Jordan suggests or just smooth call his flop bet. Given stack sizes, pushing might be better since smooth calling will get you in stranger spots, but basically my decision depends on my read on the type of opponent. If he might be betting with a set but is the kind of guy who will slowdown if the flush comes, then I might just check/call down and lose smallish pot. If I think he is the kinda guy who will semi-bluff flush draws and keep applying pressure on a missed turn then I am more likely to push flop to avoid a tricky turn play. A worse option would be to min raise, but i like the min raise better than a raise to $15

So, yeah...what I am trying to say is the $15 raise is your worst option(and I am surprised how many people think its great) and given the way it played out I guess you fold turn? ugg...I hate folding to a smallish bet like that...

Anything that goes beyond 1 page here is typically no simple

Your missing one valuable piece info in your statement: Villian limp called UTG. This could be anything.

This is KQ or KJ so much its nearly impossible to fold this here. If your properly bankrolled this hand plays itself.

FYP

Jc9c for a pair and flush draw on the flop.

See, I knew something was up. But thats only cuz i could tell Yorkie would rather get his chips in on the flop and get outdrawn, then get them in on the turn when he is already drawing dead

I still think that we should play AK for what it is, TPTK, and not jump to conclusion about investing our chips right away.

Lots of people cant fold aces post flop unless there is a 4 card flush out there that they didnt hit. Same sorta shizz with TPTK

wow im good.

- Jordan

looool

off topic. Donkslayer, which site do you play?

yes. at $50NL these days this can easily be KJ or KQ with a club. through rose colored glasses, that's what we'd be hoping he has, anyway.

Its a variation of the value bet. Instead of betting when you believe you have the best hand albeit marginal, in this example you lead out because you know that your opponent will have taken notice of your calling his flop raise and put you on a draw.

If you have TPTK in this spot most solid players would be happy to check the hand down? So your opponent trys to sell his hand and get payed off.Also, Some weak players view this as a poor bluff and will often raise. You then have the option of smooth calling and C/R river or leading in to op again.

No, i think what happend is he was up against a donkey. If you try that play at a higher limit for more money, i think it might scare away almost anthing except set, 2 pair and at times TPTK

oh, and really really really good looking.

- Jordan

I bounce around a lot, after my bonuses clear, between the several sites I get rakeback on. Right now I'm multi-tabling 50max NL and 1/2 Limit SH at Full Tilt, under the handle JsBond.