Okay, this is from a live 1/2 NL game. The players are mostly pretty solid. The villain in this particular hand is tight and smart, but he will make the occasional move. The hero in this hand has been playing superextrafarhaishly LAG...that would be me.

Stacks -

Hero: 980
Villain: 1100
Average Stack: 250

Hero is on the CO with 9c10c.

Villain limps from UTG. Three callers. I make it 6 (my standard raise...everyone else's standard is 10-12). Folds to UTG who re-raises to 16. One caller. I call.

Flop: K-9-9 rainbow

UTG bets 20. Fold. I raise to 70. Call.

Turn: 10

UTG checks. I bet 140. Villain thinks for a while. Call.

River: A

UTG goes all in. Hero...?

Please, comments on all streets.

Umm. villain is UTG? sitting with 1100?

K, if so, whats the max buy in? have you guys been running this table?

anyways, what a crappy standard raise, mine at live 1/2 is 7-10 regardless,

You seem to have flopped a decent hand, as long as UTG doesnt hold A9 or KK.
now, whats our reads on him? he is tight and smart, would he limp UTG with Kings?
I also dont really like the bet of 140 after the 10 hit. were you trying to scare him out of the hand when u hit a boat?? i mean this is a miracle board for your garbage hand with a preflop raise to 16.

all we know now is that villain has been check calling the entire way after he limp/raised preflop.

This could very well be KK, or AA. I eliminate J,Q and A9 suited since he re-raised preflop from UTG.

i think you're screwed

edit: I just re-read it, i think the only hand you're beating here is AK that could play this way. but, that narrowing him to 1 hand and dangerous

A couple of more notes.

There is no max buy in. I bought in for 300. UTG was sitting on 800 when I got there. He flopped the nuts against another players second nut flush to get up to around 1400. He lost 300 on a hand to me where he slowplayed top set and I rivered a flush.

I was raising a looooot of hands and getting a lot of action when I hit. I also like to make big calls when I think someone is trying to bluff me and picked off a few nice pots with second pair.

As for my standard raise, it's more of an exercise in improving my post-flop play. I don't know that it will stay my standard raise for ever, but for now, it's been forcing me to make better decisions post-flop.

Oh, and as for 140 on the turn...I thought he was strong. I want to get as much in there as possible.

Royal is right, your turn bet is bad. Why are you betting the pot with a boat?

In general, everything about this hand says he has AA. What do you think he puts you on? If you're pretty sure that he knows you have a 9 and he's pushing, then you'd better be folding because if he can beat a 9, he's got AA or KK.

Really the only hand that you could actually beat here is AK, assuming he's not bluffing.

The pot odds are not friendly if you're wrong. The pot was $456 and he pushes in your last $754. You're getting $1210 to $754 or, 1.6 to 1 to call. You can't be wrong too often at all here.

I would doubt that if he had AK that he'd be pushing, since the A really shouldn't change much. He was either ahead or behind most likely and the A hasn't altered that. Unless he thinks you're gonna be folding a 9, which I wouldn't make assumptions like that at 1/2 NL, then I think you're beat and should probably fold and continue to beat the other players at the table.



If you really thought that he is strong here, then you DEFINITELY need to fold since you're not beating anything. If I'm pushing AK on the river there, it'd only be because I KNOW that my opponent is beating me and that I'm fairly confident that he's gonna lay it down.

I don't quite understand this. I'm betting 140 into a pot of around 190. I'm pretty positive this guy has a strong hand. I am by far the most aggressive player at the table. If anything, my bet is too light, I would think. Please help me understand because of all the streets, I thought the turn was the most straightforward.

Ok., quickly now, You havent been putting him on hands. You said your reasoning to bet 140 is because you feel he is strong.

what in gods name is strong that you beat? J,Q, (JQ wouldnt call witha gut shot on that flop), Q,9? (Q 9 wouldnt even be in the hand to begin with)

I check this turn, you're investing, and building this pot which is leaning towards possible death.
if he checks the river, make a value bet.

I like the turnbet, Naismith --> as a LAG you valuebet here against alot of hands.

As for the rest of the hand..

The LRR preflop usually means AA or KK. Does he know that you know? Seems to me this hand involves alot of 2nd and 3thd level thinking. You said you've been pretty aggresive. Do you often fire 2nd barrels on the turn?

If you look at this from his perspective, you could make the story like this:

He limps 77 (or a similair hand), action goes around to you. You make your standard raise. He decides its enough and reraises. He knows that you look at this like a possible AA/KK. Standard flop bet, and your raise look standard to him too. You don't have to have a 9 here, so he calls. Turn bet is where the story gets tricky. You have to be ballsy to fire that barrel, but its possible. Lots of his hands can call there. River is his ultimate bluff card. He can even make you fold a 9 now. He knows that you are probably good enough to lay down one here.

Seems plausible, no? He is capable of making moves, so its defo a possibilty.

Also, what does he expect you to call with? You said you made some nice second pair calls, but never in a big pot I presume? Your callingrange here is pretty slim, and he knows it...and he still goes allin. Fishy.

If you look at this as a standard line, it is nothing else but a fold. This is AA or KK almost always if he is not tricky at all. Also, you are not getting great odds for the call.

Very interesting hand.

First off, never assume limp/raise means AA or KK, just cuz you saw some donks do it online doesnt mean we can make this a guideline. Although it does send off alarms.

second, You are going way to deep into this hand, why is villain, a good player with the largest stack at the table, taking big risks with bluffs vs the aggressive 2nd largest stack?

Makes no sense. What makes sense is villain slow playing a big hand, and overbetting the river because he knows Hero has been making calls with 2nd pairs.

cheers

Just trying to look at it from villains perspective. Between 2 thinking players it usually goes deep. I admit, I suck at constructing hands like this, but I'm trying anyway.

The limp reraise UTG is almost always AA, KK and sometimes AK, QQ, live or online. Honestly I think villian holds AA. I like the turn bet based on your image and read of villians strength.

As played the river is a fold for me as I only put the villian on 3 hands because QQ drops the turn. We only beat AK here I have to believe.

Pretty interesting hand

How in God's name can "lots of hands" call here? At every single street of a poker hand, in NL especially, you should always be thinking "if I make/call this bet, what is gonna happen on the NEXT STREET"

What hands can call on the turn? The bet is huge. There is no flush draw. The straight (gutshot, highly unlikely) got there. You think Villain LRR and is caling the turn with KQ? If he had any sense, he's probably folding AK there as well since it's pretty obvious you have something and he's unlikely to improve his hand to one that can beat a straight, trips or a boat. As far as I'm concerned, AA is the only reasonable hand, with KK and AK trailing somewhere behind.

The river is NOT a bluff card. If you had any kind of hand, how does that A change it? Unless you held KQ, the A can't possibly change anything about your hand. Your hand was trips/boat, the unlikely straight, or a bluff. When the A falls, your hand remains the same. The only thing that changes is that his most likely hand, AA, now beats you.

He moves in and you fold.

Okay, I'm pretty certain that this player would LRR with AA, KK or QQ only againts the other players. But since I was raising, raising, raising, raising, raising, don't I have to widen his range a bit?

When I said I thought he was strong, I thought he had AA or KK more often than not there and sometimes a stubborn JJ or QQ that doesn't want to fold to the aggressive player that keeps stealing pots. When I bet the turn and he called, I wasn't certain where he was and wasn't sure what I would do if checked to on the river. Had he not slowplayed top set against me earlier, I would definitely value bet the river if, say, an 8 had hit. With him playing top set like that earlier where I hit a flush on him, I wasn't positive that I would bet the river on a blank. Too tight?

Obviously, the A is the ugliest card in the deck.

Or besides the 9, its the most beautiful if he has KK.

Neat hand, sorry you were on the losing end. I would just show the 9 as you fold so he doesn't start pushing back a lot, cocky that he made you fold a boat (albeit it wasn't the winner).

To be honest I am not sure what I would do. I would have to have been there. I think the assessment from everyone is pretty dead on so folding is probably your best option.

I disagree with the show the 9 though. He doesn't need to know that info. And lets just say that this guy somehow played AK this way, and you do show the 9 he is either going to use that info against you later or show you the AK and then you'll flip the table over and kill a few people. And jail sucks so don't show the 9.

I would only widen his range to AK and a dim possibility of JJ. I also think a K on the river sucks as well but an A is definitely uglier.

If the river is an 8 or comparable junk and he checks to me I may have to just check behind to see what he has. I have this problem sometimes where I exchange chips for info. Sometimes I save my stack sometimes I miss doubling it. Its about 50/50, but the information will make up for chips that I missed out on.

i like the idea of a standard low raise like that $6 as long as you do it throughout the session holding AA or 9cTc or anything. it does truly make it difficult for someone to put you on a holding. obvioiusly there are risks involved with doing that play, but if you trust your reads you should be able to make big laydowns with your big holdings if it looks as if you got drawn out on.

next- i also like the calling of his $10 raise in position with a fun action hand like 9cTc.

i also like the raise on the flop to hopefully see where you are. unfortunately he just calls you. now alarm bells should be starting to go off..not blaring..but should be starting to go off. based on his starightforward play so far in the session and his stacks you do need to be weary of KK or AA. it is hard to put him on any other holding at this stage for the sheer fact that if he as solid as you paint him to be- he doesnt seem like the fish that would get tangled with the other deep stack with any lesser hand holdings after that flop and your raise. there may be an argument for him playing AK, but we will get to that later.

contrary to some other comments- i like the $140 bet here. you are still not overcommitting yourself, but you should really get a good read on him based on this bet. if he calls you you are in trouble IMO and be against KK and be prepared to fold or chk down the river. but the other thought is- if he just smooth calls you on the turn, he may just not respect you for the 9 and could be smooth calling his AA for hopes he is good and could chk call the river againt what he hopes is AK or KQ even.

now- the A hits. what a ******* card. at this stage in the hand you have $226 invested into this <$500 pot. he insta pushes. being the solid player you had earlier described him to be, i have to fold instantly. KK or AA really seem to be the only hand hew would take this risk with. i dont see him overvaluig AK here bc he can happily chk call wih AK knowing he would probably only get called by a hand beating him.

i really dont think you played the hand all that badly as long as you folded the river and showed the 9T to let people know that even the most farhaesque players can make big laydowns. plus if you show the 9T it may inspire him to show you his bluff and therefore you get some info on him. if he doesnt show- then feel good about your laydown.

My idea was that showing the 9 keeps your image of LAG but that you stil need to be respected postflop. If if he did show an AK after you flipped a 9, I don't think it would weakness as much as common sense. If you showed both, you might lose your strong image, and if you showed none, people could start fcking with you if they think you stuck around with air on such a high board.

These are somewhat contradictory ideas. The principle behind being LAG is that you're not going to get much respect and people are going to pay you simply because of the volume and range of hands that you showdown. You're obviously gonna make a lot of hands and you really don't want to show that you're willing to laydown a big one becuase then people will play back at you even more. This problem will be amplified simply because you're already playing TONS of pots, and now you'll have ot face tougher decisions AND larger bets in many of them. If you're gonna fold, do so quietly. If you were gonna show one card, you'd show the T and make a smart-a$$ remark like, "damn, I really think you're bluffing and I want to call you with this so badly" since a comment like that would fit your image better.

Not a bad idea at all.

LOL. I wish I had done that.

turn bet is debatable.
if you've been firing a lot of second barrels, then i'd say go ahead and fire because the villain will stick around here often enough with less than QJ - like AK and AA.
if you give up bluffs on the turn sometimes, then checking's probably better.

so here's a question for you all, and it might lead me to ask another one depending on the answers:

assuming you check the turn, how many of you just call a river lead by the villain and how many of you raise?

I rarely stop firing barrels.

Is your question regarding the river taking into account the A or are you asking if we check the turn trailing only KK and TT, do we raise the river if a blank hits? Had I checked the turn and a blank came, I would raise, but I would've been checking the turn to disguise my hand and make him think AA or even QQ was good. Had I checked the turn and the A came, I would not have raised.

Okay, I was waiting for Jordan to respond, but he's a clown, so I'm going to post without it.

I was pretty positive he had QQ, KK or AA, so I obviously folded to the river bet. I showed both cards and he showed his hand to his buddy sitting next to him and tossed them into the muck. I asked to see, but the dealer had already started to mix them up. His buddy later told me he had 10-10. I kind of felt like he had AA, though, and didn't want to admit to playing the hand so poorly, although if he really had 10-10, he seriously screwed up the turn as well.

Based on the information you've given us I'm pretty sure you're beat in this hand.

When a player is tight and smart and does the limp-reraise to a LAG then he's basically sweetening the pot with a better hand. I'd put him on a range of top 5 hands with a high possibility of bullets and cowboys.

If you've been firing checks all night then I like your turn bet. Whenever I see a LAG suddenly slow down it always sends alarm bells in my head.

The big turn bet says I might have nothing, I might have a monster...and for future hands it keeps your opponents off balance. But more than anything it gives you more information on where you stand.

A tight player and a "smart" tight player are two different animals. I never go crazy with top pair and I couldn't imagine him calling and praying for you to make a small bet on the river if he just cold calls the big turn bet.

If villian is pulling a move then good for him. If you never make a bad fold then you're calling too much in my books.

This is 100% straight forward. If you're checking the turn, it's becuase you're worried that you might be losing the hand after all. Once the rivercard falls and you're not longer beating another of his most likely holdings, you simply call any reasonable river bet.

There is no value in raising since we are already worried that we are beaten. If we raise, then we are throwing money away.

?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in an earlier post you seemed to agree with Royal that you'd check the turn because you'd be scaring off any hands that are behind... which basically means that barring an A, the river is a raise.

The reason I asked Naismith what he'd do on the river is because of his image. If he's considered a bluffing machine at the table, he might still get paid by AK on a river raise even if an A falls, provided the villain's river lead is small enough. If the lead's close to pot sized, raising is obviously bad as it probably potsticks us into calling any reraise.

I'm wondering if given a loose enough image and a small enough villain lead (somewhere around 1/3 pot), we lose some value by categorically ruling out a river raise. I don't play as LAG as Naismith (at least based on his posts), and this seems kind of in the gray area where the logic of "only hand that calls you is the hand that beats you" starts to erode somewhat because of image.

There are a few reasons to check the turn here.

1. You think you've got a lock on the hand and want him to "catch up" a little, knowing he can't outdraw you
2. You want to make your hand look weaker than it is so that he might take a shot on the river when he misses (if he's drawing)
3. You're genuinely worried about his hand beating you and you want to keep the pot smaller

Part of the idea is that once he leads the river and you raise, it's highly unlikely that he's gonna hold a hand that would've played as he did in this one, that you're beating. Most of the tought goes into the fact that he's either got you completely crushed, or he can't call a raise becuase he's bluffing or just otherwise weak.

For those reasons, almost all value is lost in raising.

My assessment would be that he's got a hand that crushes us or can't call a raise anyway. Both of those situations are ones where we never want to raise.

It's hard for me to check the turn because I so rarely check the turn, but if I did mix in the occasional check, I do it to make him think his AK or QQ or AA is good and that he caught me on the flop trying to represent something stronger than I have. I'm not trying to let him catch up because I know the range of his hands. I check to make me look weak and then when he checks to me on the river or bets at me on the river, I can make what looks like one final steal attempt and get a call from a wider range of hands.

I could also have bet smaller on the turn, but to someone paying attention, it would look odd since I rarely bet less than 3/4 pot. Maybe a turn overbet would be my equivalent of real weakness?

Had the river been something like a 4, if he bets at me, I raise for value, he goes all in and I frown and pay him off (or, if he had AK, I frown and then smile when I drag the pot). I thought his range was JJ-AA, though. I thought AK would've LRR'ed bigger preflop rather than induce a call with such a reasonable sized raise. I don't know, maybe on a blanked river, I just call a bet and call out KK for his hand.

If the A doesn't fall, then you can raise the river. As it is, you're assigning that range and the ONLY TWO HANDS that would've stayed in are KK and AA and you're losing to both of them.

Well obviously if we think we're behind on the turn we should just call the river.
If we did it for deception value, then flat calling the river would be fairly straightforward itself, given typical conditions. For the record, I would never raise the river - but I rarely cultivate as loose an image as the one that Naismith seems to be portraying here.

Based on your answer, I'd characterize your thinking as it's never lost value to not raise a small river lead, no matter how much of a bluffing maniac fool you are perceived to be at the table. Fair enough.

I agree, which is why I folded in the original hand.

Hypothetically, though, had I checked the turn and the river blanked, now I can make a play on the river because 1) I showed weakness on the turn and 2) my wild table image, thus enabling the villain to make a heroic call with QQ or JJ as well as the obvious call with AA. Correct?

For the record, I am a loose player but this was the loosest I've ever played in a cash game.

Are we talking in the context of a turn bet or turn check?

The former, yeah you're right. It would be suicidal to raise the river in that case.
The latter, well, no, villain can hold a lot more than AA/KK on the river, for obvious reasons.



This reasoning right here is what has me wondering if you're thought loose/crazy enough to get a call from a weaker hand on a river raise of a smallish lead. You check the turn (villain thinks bluff is over), and then the villain leads smallish and you raise again (villain now thinks you're trying to bluff the A).

I can't possibly raise a river A after a check because now, regardless of my image, no tight player has it in them to try and catch me bluffing with QQ and JJ. The only hand I catch there is AK. Without the A, I can get AA, QQ and JJ.

AK is pretty much all I was thinking. More ways for him to have it than AA/KK, which of course still doesn't make it right to raise unless given the right conditions - the existence of which I have no idea about since you were playing at a level of looseness even rare for you. But it seems as though even then, you'd think that it wouldn't be worth it.

Hmm... probably should've just PM'ed you about this. Oh well.

My comment was in the context of a turn check.

With that board and the way the hand has played out, I would say that 95 % of the time his river bet is one made out of desperation becuase he knows he can't win, or because he knows that he can't lose and doesn't want to risk the street not getting bet.

That's why, regardless of whether you bet the turn or checked the turn, I think that calling the river bet is almost always correct.

I don't know if I can agree here.

If I'm the villain and I have AA and this maniac raised me on the flop and then checked behind me on the turn and I bet into him on a blanked out river, I might just have to call a raise. If he has QQ, he probably folds (which means we win no more money) but against a wild player, he might call thinking he's picking off a bluff.

I'm talking about if we check the turn and the A falls. If the river blanks, then raising is reasonable. I'm referring to the scenario where the WHOLE hand plays out the same except we checked behind on the turn. Same board cards, same everything else.

Well, I have no other response than to nod.

...this was fun.

I read a few replies, but not all of them in case results were revealed. Anyway, you have to fold this river. The candidates for a LRR this size are, in order or likelihood, AA, KK, A-x, random trash, AK.

This river overbet is not a bluff. With the stacks this deep, villian would have to be a total donkey to bet twice the pot on a bluff. It seems very likely that you have a strong hand, and I don't think villian expects you to get away from it.

So, if villian's not bluffing, what could he have here. Well, there's always that most likely LRR hand, AA. If he's got that, he just boated up on the river with the second nuts and will want to get as many chips in as possible. That's certainly a likely hand here. How about KK? Not as likely, given the action, but still possible, and also a hand that beats us. A-x? Well, what A-x would be calling the flop and turn there? Only one of them. A9. There's another hand that now has us beat on the river.

In conclusion, I think we're behind about 80% of the time and getting terrible pot odds. It might not be a bad idea to turn your hand over and try to get a read on the villian, but I think this is a fold the vast majority of the time. I think the flop and turn are fine though FWIW.

you may have thoguht he was strong, but if he's going to be calling a 3/4 pot bet on the turn after limp/raising and check calling, he's a GDMF monster...so yes he's strong and you are essentially doing all the work for him. He doesn't have to worry about getting you to make a tough laydown. He is screaming i have kings right now.

Sucks