Can we talk?

When do we want to shove with big draws and when do we want to call.

Let’s say we have we are BB with

Ah 6h

Board: 5h 7s 8h

talk to me about what are actions should be
I’ll leave the stacks/blinds/buy in/STT vs MTT,/ all open for your analysis.

To get it started, Coper has me thinking more and more about “If you’re going all in anyway, which way gets you paid the most”

Well, which way keeps me in the game, too.
And which way gets more chips in when my equity is highest.
Which wins the most chips

Maybe address a “made” hand as well, like

Qh Jh

Board : Js Ah 3h

Does it matter that we have a made hand.
What if the Ah was a 6h.


I got lots to say but I want to listen

Can we talk?

or..just bet/raise a lesser amount..I dont' mean to limit this to just call or push..of course..
and number of players in hand..al that up to you

Not asking for much, are ya!

I think the "discussion" is probably a very long chapter in a very long book, there are so many variables to consider.

gee.
and to think I was actually hoping for something from you!!

Come on....

Sometimes you say "we're losing our audience" And I want to know when that is worse than picking up the pot. I tended to always like the fold equity, and probably miss value.

So put something into this..

please

i dont think you should push because its a tournament.

with this kind of hand you can easily justify calls and raises of almost any amount. the implied odds for making this hands is very high, no matter the reason your opponent is betting or staying in the pot, you have him cornered, he will rarely put you on the monster draw until too late or give you credit for a straigh or a flush if he tries to bet you out......why is this? because these draws alone were probably not enough for a call, but together they were so you did call. he will pay you off.

if you push with this, the other guy will either fold and you just take down the smallish pot, or the guy will call and you are racing with only 2 cards to come. better to test his fold with bets not all in(and also give him more reason to stay in pot if you make your hand because of what he invest)

you either want to represent a made hand, especially with the A6s and see what kind of action you get or let him be the aggressor, if you dont make it or hit your Ace you can bow out the hand gracefully if he didnt show weakness.

playing it like this you lose less and gain more, thats the idea.

pushing all in with these draws is more of a cash game play because +50% +FE will be a +EV play even heads up


P.S. you dont need fold equity on this type of hand

I was playing $2/$5 NL last week at the Taj while the USPC was being played in day 4 of the 5 day main event. There were a couple of loose pros at my table, so I kept this in mind while playing.

From what I remember, there was a small raise to $15, a few callers, and I called from BB with 57 of diamonds. The flop was dealt 68 of diamonds and the jack of clubs. SB bet $15. I raised to $40, everyone but the SB folded, SB raised to $125, I pushed all in for about $550.

SB looked at me, then his cards, and folded AJ face up. To establish a presence at the table that I was not going to be pushed around, I showed my 57 of diamonds. The pro who folded the AJ said, "Nice bet. You seemed pretty sure of yourself and you were definitely a favorite"

With 15 outs, I was better than a coinflip to win the hand. I was also happy to take the pot as it stood.

holy,

ty for response.
Now expand if this is already a big pot preflop
What if our stacks are low
Can we push then?

you can still get folds by betting, all in is not necessary.....i never said dont bet this, by all means bet it.....maybe even choose to call all in depending on stack sizes and number of ppl in the pot.......

you dont need push, you will make more money in the long run by playing it out and bust out a whole lot less.

and in the hand with the pro, yes you were technically "ahead" there, but with 2 cards to come if you miss one you are down to 30% and absolutely no hand made. i promise you he did not put you on that hand, im sure he was inwardly saying wth he calling 15 more preflop with 5 7 s.

and yes with short stacks its an absolutely fabulous spot to push, because with this hand you are happy with as many callers as possible unlike usual.

I never say "losing our audience", i say "losing our market".

I'll put something into it but it will seriously take a lot, probably something in the form of a decision matrix, to do the question justice...thats why real hands are so much easier to respond to..youre already at the bottom of the matrix and just have a couple of leaves to examine.

In any complex question like this I think you have to start with identifying your objectives on 3 levels: metagame; longterm; shortterm (in order of increasing importance). With a clear idea of those objectives, you can then identify the risk/reward in alternative actions and how well they accomplish the objectives.

Short term objectives are best analyzed in light of M and Q of you and the villain(s) along with bubble/prize structure implications, playing style of villain(s), position, your image etc.

However short term objectives probably fall into some basic categories with associated general strategies. (I am just throwing this out to start the discussion and are off the top of my head, so add/disagree freely!):

• double up at any cost - small leads to coax villain into getting pot committed, aggressive response to his aggression/attempts to protect
• take reasonable risks to accumulate a significant number of chips-small leads to coax villain into getting pot commited, more passive response to his aggression/attempts to protect, keep multiple villans in the pot
• accumulate chips with minimal risk-check and call unless bets are significant to either stack, keep pot small so that a later push has FE
• the chips already in the pot are good enough-maximize fold equity on this and the next street

early in tournament I will overbet with this hand about 1.25-1.5 pot.

I do this because I feel first few rounds are for building an image. Betting on draws will get me action later on made hands. Therefore I will bet all the way through to river if I can keep the bets small enough to recover from.

Middle and late stages, I check call, trying to catch before I commit.

Although I often times wish I would have bet on flop when it gets checked around and turn is brick. I would rather bet from strength, letting the other guy chase. So much easier decisions when you are ahead.

now we're talking!

I had another hand, earlier that day at a different table, in which I called $25 preflop with A9 of clubs. The flop was 78 clubs and jack of hearts. Three people in hand, I bet $75, next player goes all in for about $400, other player folds, I call with, hopefully, 15 outs. Player all in shows KJ of clubs. Club on turn.

Other player said, "I've got a flush!" I said, "Me too!"

Dane, you have shown two examples where you pushed allin and called allin as probably a small favourite. How would you have played them if they were in a tournament?

Differently.

In a cash game, I try to always get all the money in as a favorite and, theoretically, I will come out ahead in the long term. I like to have bigger advantages in tournaments toward the beginning. Toward the end of a tournament, I'll accept smaller advantages.

I like Doyle's advice in SS 2 in which he says:

Early Rounds - Play the early levels, especially the first two levels, carefully and try to avoid the all-in, coin-flip hands. Try to play small pots, raise a lot of pots with marginal hands, but be prepared to play very cautiously if you get called.

Entering the third day, even if it is a four- or five-day tournament, I am about ready to start playing as I play in the cash games. I have to remind myself, “Don’t be afraid to go broke!” Perhaps I won’t play quite as loose as I play the cash games, but now I’m prepared to take races on other close gambles in what I think are favorable situations. Make no mistake about it, you have to be very, very lucky to win one of these major tournaments. It’s impossible to play the entire tournament and always be a prohibitive favorite when the money goes in. So you can see the parlay that is required to win a large tournament. The players that continue to play very tight sometimes go deep into the tournaments, but seldom win.

keep it on tournies, thanks Simo.


I think it's tough for me to bet big drawss strong on the turn.
I'm more convinced we lose our market after we hit the good card on the turn/river than we are by over betting/pushing on the flop if someone has show strength.

My threshold to shove is probably a smaller pot than some others.

Do you all tend to shove with better or worse draws.
THat is to say, with margnal draws you need the FE; but with bigger draws you can hold up better if called; but also be in a better situation to call a raise if you just bet and extract more on both streets.

also I love the guys that chat:

Fish: You pushed all in on a flush draw ?
Pusher: You called off 3/4 of your chips with TPTK.


Now, both could be correct
But the Fish by calling the push and acting as if he's shocked that it's just a draw pushing looks bad to me. He's essentially saying "I'm calling off 3/4 of my stack with just TPTK and I would be shocked if you are on a draw"

It's a neat evolution we see.
All ins used to mean strenth.
And to call an all in without a huge hand was donkeyish.
Now, so many push with draws, we can call all ins with fair made hands against the right opponents.

it's probably my evolving, and the game has been there for a while

its internet poker

A couple of weeks ago on the WPT on the Travel Channel, Patrik Antonius pushed preflop w/ A2. Doyle called and won with 33. Patrik said, "I can't believe that you called with 33." Doyle then said, "I can't believe that you pushed all in with A2."

Last week in a very small tournament at the Taj, we got down to two tables, and Tony Licastro pushed from UTG for about 1/4 of my stack. I put him on a steal and called from MP w/ 22 looking to win a coinflip. He showed Q9o. I won the hand. He didn't criticize my call. He shook my hand and said that it was a good call.

yes its nice to see more classy pros out there. little famous crybabies like hellmouth make us all look bad. most of the time i hear them complain about how can you call with that i want to spit flames. if you know they call with that then use it against them, thats how the game is played and stop whining.

calling with 33 is the same as calling with 99 pretty much, dont see why the guy you were talking about was so shocked(upset he cant just push all in and take the pot without a fight anytime with anything?). and its one seriously risky move, i use to do it all the time but now i prefer rolling with high cards unpaired.

id almost prefer to go in with K2 than A2, often times your caller for the all in will have an ace and have you dominated.

I agree, except not almost; always. When shortstacked, I don't push with ace rag. I prefer middle suited connectors or single gappers like 97, 68, 57, etc. in the hopes that I have two live cards with possibilities. I actually tripled up with 23 suited last week when I put the two players ahead of me on big aces and I was right. I flopped two pair and made a full house on the turn, which was overkill, but it worked.

This is overly simplified. By a lot. But I'll type it anyways.

Many opponents and position, play it slow.

Few opponents OOP play it fast.

that's exactly the framework or tidbits I"m looking for.

thanks.

I think you'd get more of what you are looking for if you generated 10 different topics of scenarios that you would like discussed. I'm not about to develop a hypothetical for every drawing situation, especially since I believe the difference between playing it slow and fast is very marignal and both need to be mixed in.

For me it comes down to pot-size and opponent.

The pot-size element has to do with whether or not I'm happy to take the pot as is...that is, is the fold equity component of a push actually relevent here.

For example, early in a tournament, everyone has about 4k in chips...4 people limp and the pot is 200, and I get one of the big draws I'm speaking of.

I'm not gonna open push...I might check and then push if the guys behind me have built up the pot a bit....I may lead myself to build up the pot a bit and then decide what to do on the turn. But I'm not happy if everyone folds here, so fold equity is a deterrant for me here.


Open pushing into a small pot increases the chances that you are gonna get called by a monster...you'll rarely get called by tptk with a pot this small, but you will get called by middle set. (and this is where the "opponent" element comes in...if these clowns will call with tptk, you could push knowing you'll get called as a favourite - but, if they're that weak, why not wait 'til you're better than 52% to win).

Generally speaking, on the flop I can push if I'm certain my draw makes me a favourite and I'm certain I'll get a call.

On the turn I'm pushing if I'm certain I'll get a fold, but have several outs if I am called.


Calling all-in on a draw always makes me queasy...it again will come down to pot-size, stage of tourney, and how many outs I really have.