here's one. this is a pretty standard b/f line on the flop and turn for me.

PokerStars 10/20 Omaha/8 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2 , 5 , 2 , A .
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 6 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) J , Q , T (2 players)

Hero bets...

Final Pot: 1.25 BB


when players are typically pretty competent, bets like this are absolutely necessary, IMHO. at lower limits, not so much, but it's very easy to bluff a flop like this HU OOP.

i set up this bluff by checking PF, too. normally i'd raise this, but the player here is a decent player and i'd rather have him thinking i could have any four instead of a raising hand.

I think the converter cut off some of the hand

no it didnt you missed the whole point

it did, sorry, i led at the flop. my bad. that was all i showed.

Yeah for high-limit games, I think this is a good play, as long as your opponent isnt an idiot. Your typical opponent isn't limping in with a hand that hits ANY of this board unless he has AKW (W=wheel card)...and he'll let you know if he hit there.

how does he not raise you here?

i might also check/raise flop and lead at any turn but a K or A.

maybe i suffer from FPS.

so youre him here, youre raising with any four quite often?

i'm sure as hell raising with a queen. i might have trouble folding to a 3 bet with 2 pair. My read of the opponent would determine when i'm raising with any four.

of course this may not work at most tables.

you are better than most players, apparently

You are raising with a Q? Please let me know where you play and I'll join ya.

am i folding with a Q? you are going to get run over if you fold every flop without a monster or a nut nut draw.

the only way i'm calling with a queen is if the opponent is one to slow down and the turn goes blank/check.

I'd tell you where and what i play online, but frankly it isn't good for my long term financial situation.

explain why you think calling or folding a Q is a good play.

p.s. i'm not going to showdown unimproved with just a queen if he keeps firing.

How 'bout a raise PF, still lead the flop?

Why defend with a Q when you have contibuted ONE big blind to a small pot? It is a great play to lead with this type of flop 1st to act, but impossible to call without a set or AK. The ONLY play at this you should make (if you wanted to make a play) is to check raise and actually see if he has AK. If he does, he will reraise and you will fold. It would only cost you 2 small bets/1 big bet. If you keep check calling with one pair improving to 2 pair, you still may be chasing your 6 out full house draw to his obvious straight and lose ~6 SB's.

"you are going to get run over if you fold every flop without a monster or a nut nut draw"???

I can't even think of an intelligent comeback for this comment...esp in a full ring game.

Please consider my NOOB advise.

That's generally how I handle this situation as well.

It is helpful to know that this thread came about as a result of another thread re shorthanded O8. So although this table is not shorthanded, the hand in discussion is.
These are meant to be 'knowledgable players'. People who will fold non-nut hands.

While it could be argued that naybuttons shouldn't apply short-handed tactics when the table is full, it's the fact that many hands will be short-handed at the stakes(I guess). You won't get the same value from your nut-nut hands as you would in loose games. You have to 'earn' your money.

That said, in this hand, we can expect to lose a lot of the time here. Maybe these types of hands are 0EV in the long-run(either as Hero or Villain). You have to play quite well for that, and play exceptionally well to actually be +EV, or at least play much better than your opponents.
But if nothing else, showing down some of these hands will ensure we don't have a 'rock' image, which is essential to getting paid off(on big hands) by these sorts of opponents.

Really? I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious. I make the same play as checky here most of the time (granted I play much lower than he does) and it seems to be a winning play a lot of the time for me at least.

#1 - I agree...betting from 1st pos is a great play, because 90% of the time the other player will fold.

#2 - Full ring games with 2 to the flop IS NOT even close to the strategy of S/H and heads up play.

oftentimes its easier to be really tricky at full ring with 2 to the flop if you are good at putting opponents on hands. (people are much more transparent at full ring)

i don't want my words misinterpreted. if i'm villian in this hand with a Q, this hand is ending on the flop (if my raise is called i'm shutting down). if i have J10 my play depends on opponents.

if i'm villian why would hero lead this flop? AK is not likely without a flush draw on board. K9 and 89 are possible. two pair or trips is likely as well. a raise w/ a Q shuts our opponent down for the rest of the hand except AK (so we know to fold then).

say hero had 89 and villian (we) had J10. we pop him on the flop, he checks the turn, and the only way we pay on the river is if we improve. if he three bets us on the flop we easily fold the turn.

maybe these plays are too crazy but i'm pretty sure they're not.



wanna lay our hand face up on the felt?

A few things:
1) Remember that navybuttons suggested some moves from the villain's POV. To Swift_Pshycho: when I said it might be 0EV, it wasn't an authoritative statement regarding your EV on either side.
I was just pointing out that if you play moves(with non-nut hands) as has been argued here for both Hero and Villain, you might just end up even.

2) I never said betting from front is dubious. On the contrary, it is almost obvious.

3) Predator, your last point has some merit. But that doesn't change things much. I replied to your post which was debating the play from Villain's POV. I'm more interested in that discussion than the obvious bet which checky actually made.

I already pointed out that it 'could be argued that naybuttons shouldn't apply short-handed tactics when the table is full'.
The BB is not more likely to have AK 'because it's full-ring', so arguing that starting hands are so much better is wrong.
If the leading bluff is played often by your opponent, then making a re-steal becomes more correct.
If you are concerned about the unnecessary spewing of chips at a full-table, then it's an idea to think of playing these marginals as necessary to getting paid.
These opponents might quickly identify you as a nut player, and you won't get action when you do bet and raise post-flop.
If theses moves are very -EV, then you're making them against the wrong opponent(that's bad poker).

I'm in no way saying that navybutton's play is to be made all the time, but you shot it down, as if his posts were rubbish, which they weren't.

well said sir. but, again, i think plays like this may have more merit at full ring where opponents play more straightfoward. (obviously not in this case with being in the BB, but i think my point is understood)

when you said earlier the plays like mine are probably 0EV, i immediately thought he's probably right. but the more i think about it, the more i think they are AT LEAST 0EV and are probably +EV.

if i put a chip into the pot i'm going to fight you for it. that is not to say that i will call down and you better show me the goods, but rather i'm going to put you on a hand, stick with my read until it changes, and play accordingly.

think about this: if your opponent leads 1/4 times with air and 1/7 times with a weak two pair and folds to a raise, and 1/4 he has an arkansas straight checks down and we suck out, then the raise is +EV (i think, although i'm bad at math). the key is determining which players making this play is correct against.

now, if you make this play 2 times an hour against the opponents it is correct to do so against think about the 2 times an hour you make this play with the immortal nuts. even if the play (in and of itself) had a slight -EV, the EV of it becomes positive when we flop a moster. in one case (raise with little) it cost us 2 SB where if we are behind we can still suck out and fold when we know we're beat, in the other (flopping a moster) we get so many extra bets we blush a little.

Very good analysis guys. A couple things. I typically play PL so raising this in the villans shoes is risky, since it would be the pot or near to even represent the AK or QQ. With that being said....if the villian raises with just a Q, in limit, wont the hero most likely call if he has anything from 2pr or a set or even a lower straight? One more small bet is tough to get someone to fold to when there are 7 in the pot and they have a chance of winning.

this is where reads (real poker) come into play.

easy fold in PL. money comes from nut nuts in small PLO8 games and donkeys with inferior hands calling down.

right. PLO8 is no fun.



as for results, i took this one down with the one bullet on the flop. in my experience, this sort of bluff works right away about 1/3 times at the 10/20 game on stars, and with a second barrel on the turn about another 1/3, IF you pick your spots on boards like these with no low draw (which makes it a profitable long-term move).

i would never make moves like this on boards with two low cards, and i would also never make them in pots that are more than 3 way. just remember that once you show down one of these moves, you can't make them on every board like this from here on out. you have to get pickier about your spots.

for the record, i would generally raise the flop with 2p, a queen with over-2p-redraws or a gutshot, or a queen with a running low with counterfeit protection were i the villain. but not everyone plays the same. raising a naked queen would get me off this hand too, but i also bet out with made hands here, so it's hard to tell if that's profitable long-term. i think i would toss a garbage queen with no other help here most of the time, but i could definately buy an argument for raising.

i generally like to have a tight image in lo8 so that i can pull bluffs like these off in bigger pots on the turn and river, but there are a lot of styles that can pay off if you manipulate your image correctly.