No set reads yet, been at the table for about 2 orbits. Table was fairly loose and passive for the most part. Nothing stood out in my mind so far from either opponent.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Hero ($59.90)
MP2 ($87)
CO ($33.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K , A .
UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($3) 7 , K , J (6 players)
3 checks, Hero bets $3, MP2 raises to $6, CO calls $6, 3 folds, Hero ?

I'm sure I'll get some crap about not raising pf, but this is my default play with this hand in this position.

1.) How do we proceed on the flop?

2.) If people find it valuable to talk about pf then by all means address it.

It's very possible MP2 is on a draw and hopes the mini-raise will cause you to check the turn and let him see the river without having to call another bet. I personally repop it to $15. Fold to a reraise, check/fold UI on the turn.

Call.

So if one or both opponents call your re-raise you c/f the turn if you whiff?

Actually I don't mind the call pf in EP at a new table with AKo. Makes it nice and easy to get a way from if you whiff and potentially more profitable if you hit strong. The raise from MP2 doesn't scare me as much as the cold call from CO. The min raise could simply be his(MP2) attempt to counter act the small ball tactic of firing at a pot even if you miss or finding out if his second pair is good. The cold call could be a tricky player with a set waiting for you to re-raise before he jams. Of course he could be on the draw with something like Q10 or setting up a bluff given his position, but it's disconcerting. I would probably call, and fire a 2/3 pot bet if the turn is a blank, if it's a danger card fire 1/3-1/2, you might be buying some decent info for later.

Care to share why?

Since we're in the position now regardless on how we got here we're prob behind but We'll have to call here... and see what the turn brings

Sure, I will try to explain why.

The biggest reason I limp is to try to control the pot size. Better put, I just want to keep the pot small OOP without a made hand. Especially in loose games I limp, if people are liberally calling pf raises, I'm OOP and have just started the process in building a big pot.

Limp/Re-Raise. I only use this against certain types of opponents. Not to mention alot of people see this move as AA/KK only so it adds a little bit of deception. So many people love to raise a limped pot, either to isolate or just b/c they are aggressive. Limping gives you lots of ways to play your hand.

It encourages people with weaker A's to limp or raise. You don't make money off of these dominated hands if they fold pre flop, limping allows them to come in the pot. People may enter the pot with those same hands if you had raised, but this just increases the chances.

It's easier to play if you miss, you just c/f without anything. This is probably more of a psychological thing. People, myself included, have problems becoming attached to a pot when they raise pf, this helps you just realize you have nothing in a small pot and can fold.

The biggest thing with limping is playing the flop. You have to get more of people's money when they flop TP vs. your TPTK then they get of yours whenever they flop 2 pair/trips/etc.. vs. your TPTK. Basically, you just have to trust your post flop ability, b/c hands like A4s will be in there, where as if you had raised pf it's possible you could rule that out of villain's range.

That's about all I can think of now, my reasoning may or may not be good, I don't know, but it works for me.

I hate AK OOP

I think it's safe to assume your beat.

With the omnious double raise, and the call, added to the fact that you let these players see a cheap flop just adds to the trouble. You have no info (since everyone limped) and there has been a raise and call. It's a safe bet your beat.

Here's the rest the of the hand, I think my line was the best, but it's possible I could be convinced otherwise.

Hero ($59.90)
MP2 ($87)
CO ($33.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K , A .
UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($3) 7 , K , J (6 players)
3 checks, Hero bets $3, MP2 raises to $6, CO calls $6, 3 folds, Hero raises to $20, MP2 calls , CO folds

Turn: (~$50) 7
Hero pushes ~$36, MP2 folds

I think the turn pretty much plays itself so I"m leaving the results in.

Raise preflop. <--- Not a discussion.

Reraise the flop. You are probably ahead, and you should find out soon if you aren't.

I disagree with the bolded part, can you explain why it's a must raise? I already stated my reasons. I also read an article somewhere on 2+2 about a year ago, looked for it earlier today, but didn't find it. Anyways, it was on raising pf in small stakes nl games, it said if you NEVER raised pf you would only be making a small mistake, if any. If I find it, I'll post it, it would make for good discussion.

Raise AK preflop for the same reason you raise any other hand. Value. It is a mistake (however small) not to do so.

If you're UTG or UTG+1 do you always raise these hands(9's, 8's, 5's, 4's, etc..)?

I'm not saying not to raise AK pf, I do it all the time, in this position though, I feel it is the best way to maximize my ev.

The main point of the post was the flop play. I used to play very passively post flop. I've changed it up and have been more aggressive and it has improved my game.

My plan on the flop, after I raised, was to fold to a re-raise. If called, push any non scare card turn. Is that line on the flop optimal?

You can't equate AK to 4s and 5s.

AK is totally different. You'd rather be HU with AK, 4s/5s you want multiway action.

Not equating the hands, just his logic "raise for value". If you run those pairs through poker stove I'm sure they have +equity against 9 random hands. I just really dislike when people say "not a discussion" or "do this", but don't explain why.

It's just not very helpful, we're here to learn and to discuss. And I also believe that limping maximizes my value in the hand for the reasons I stated earlier.

What do you think about the line on the flop?

raise both PF and the flop

I almost never open limp. Yes, I raise 44, 67s and TT utg, and all to the same amount.

I think your line on the flop is fine.

You have a better chance at controlling the pot size by raising. Limping lets others in, as in your hand you take a flop with 6 PLAYERS. THATS A LOT! If you raise here, I would expect UTG to call, but it is quite likely that you eliminate many of the players that limped ahead of you, as a typical raised pot goes to the flop 2 or 3 handed. Against 3 players, TPTK is much better than against 6, and MP2 might even pay you off with his weaker hand, as he has now committed more chips.

I could go on, but nutshell: Raise good, call bad.

Good post.

I agree with some of your points and maybe it's just my personal preference, but with this hand OOP, I would rather play a 6 handed unraised pot as compared to a 3 or 4 handed raised pot. It may not be the most +ev play pf, but I think it maximizes my ev on later streets.

Also, opponent's pf mistakes are typically very small mistakes and don't have a ton of -ev in comparison to the mistakes they make after the flop. So I'm forgoing a small edge pf in order to get a bigger edge post flop.

I'm struggling to think of a reason why. Could be that it's 4:20am here and I haven't slept much lately so my thinking is somewhat frazzled, or it could be that there isn't a valid reason for it.

you're not frazzled

The fact of the matter is that there isn't a good reason to not raise PF with AK. Once in a while fine...but not consistently. You have a good equity edge with big slick and the more people you let in the smaller that edge becomes. I would much rather raise here and play the hand heads up if not take the pot down immediately.

The quote "Its about winning money not winning pots" comes to mind. My thinking is not what option gives me the best chance to thin the field and thus increase my chances of winning pot, rather I try to figure out how I can make/lose the most/least money in the hand.

I should also mention that I was out drinking a bit until 2:30am, so not only am I tired, I'm also a little bit drunk.
Good to know I'm still thinking somewhat straight.

That thought process is foolish and will cost you a lot of money in the long run. The more people you let into the pot, the worse you hand becomes.

All I'll say is: reverse implied odds. That might help.
Why would you limp with AK but not AA there? Surely you can make more by doing that, can't you?

What reasons do you have for limping AK and not AA?

Is our equity edge bigger pre flop or post flop?



I do sometimes limp AA here also, not all the time though. AA is a made hand and therefore makes it easier to play both pre flop and post flop OOP.

About reverse implied odds, the reason I make this play is b/c I feel I have an edge post flop, if I didn't I would certainly get in more money pre flop.

Also, I do raise AK in this spot sometimes, limping is just my default.

It's bigger preflop hence the need to raise some lower hands out of the pot. If you limp with hand you then allow each and every person behind you the proper odds to call the limp with virtually any two cards. A-K loses to a pair of dueces. If you are able to push the weaker hands out of the pot with a raise the better your chances at winning the hand becomes.

Besides with a raise OOP you send the message that you must have something and will almost definitely be able to force some weaker hands from the pot.

Sure I will win fewer pots this way, that doesn't mean I won't win as much or more money.



Can you quantify this?

Not really. You can get trapped with AA just as you can with AK. Probably more so.

Do you understand what reverse implied odds are? This response has little to do with reverse implied odds.


That is bad. I might go into further detail when I wake up.

Yes I can get trapped, but I don't mind building a pot with AA, I do however mind building it with A high OOP.

Yes, I believe I have an edge post flop and therefore will be able to lay down my hand when need be, thus not giving my opponents more money.

It most certainly does. When you keep giving up a huge pot equity edge you are going to lose money in the long run, because you are giving your opponents a reason to call. NEVER give your opponents the odds to call unless you are holding the stone cold nuts and are trying to extract as much money from them as you possibly can.

As for quantifying it...it's simple. Hand values are much different before and after the flop. AK is a premium starting hand and you must get your money in when you have the best of it (this is implicitly stated in "Theory of Poker", also it is common sense). When the flop comes your hand value drops significantly since there are cards our there that can beat your AK. Like I stated earlier a pair of dueces beats an unpaired AK. This is the reason for the raise PF...it forces hands that can make 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. pair out of the pot thus significantly increasing your chances to win. Why would you limp with AK, give everyone to your left the odds to call with just about anything? The flop can come and help at least one or two of the players you let in the hand for virtually nothing, and take your hand down.

You stated that it's about winning money and not winning pots...I agree with this. However you are missing another important statement. "A small win is better than a big loss." Let's say you let someone in the hand with a hand like 98o and the flop comes A98 (suits irrelevant). They make a bet into the pot, you raise thinking you have them dominated, they reraise you. Now you are either going to fold and take a good hit to your stack or you're going to call and lose the whole damn thing. Raising PF would push a hand like 98o out of the pot and that leaves you with better chances of winning.

This thread is dumb.

If you don't raise AK preflop, wtf do you raise?

It's obvious that you won't listen to reason. You ask our opinions about the hand. We challenge your idiotic play, you draw some ire from it and then proceed to defend said idiotic play. The fact of the matter is that you're wrong...period. If you don't like that assessment then I have two more sayings for you..."the truth hurts" and "get over it".

There's no point in offering any more advice on this since talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. I think you and Kowboy Koop are a match made in heaven.

I'm done with this topic.

lol, I'm just stating and defending my opinion as are you. It's ok to disagree you know.

I second that. I happen to disagree with most of all of what brando is saying and agree with what seems to be the mainstream thought on this topic. The purpose of forums such as these is to learn and trade ideas, based on the socratic dialectic method. If brando is in fact wrong, there's no reason to insult him. He'll either learn eventually, or wont, which is better for everybody else right? Maybe he could even be onto something. Not saying that this is or isnt the case here, but just because everybody agrees on something doesn't make it right. To think so would make forums such as these nearly valueless.

Taken from cardplayer.com, this article discusses playing AK pre flop. The author is Roy Cooke, it's written about lhe, but certainly applys to nlhe, maybe even more. Here's the link and an excerpt. Link

CardPlayer = not the best advice

LHE <> NLHE, AINEC.

You raise AK preflop because you fare to have the best hand more than enough, and you are competent playing postflop.

Not saying they give the best advice, but I certainly will be more inclined to listen to Roy Cooke's advice as compared to some random poster. This is also not carplayer's advice, but someone who successfully played professionally to my understanding. DN and other pros gives advice in cardplayer columns, should I just disregard all that also?

Just b/c they aren't the same game doesn't mean they don't share some of the same concepts, come on I didn't expect something like that from you.

As for the third statement, fine, do you raise 55 utg or utg+2, you fare to have the best hand more than enough and are competent post flop.

No, because when you are called you are either behind or a coinflip, hence little to no value.

If your opponent had a set here you would have lost a lot of money. Noone is good enough not to suffer reverse implied odds. Having an edge postflop does not mean that you can't go broke on a hand.

Oh, and in this situation, Roy Cooke would raise with AK. I can guarantee that.

Exactly, this means there are other things to consider when raising pf, instead of "i probably have the best hand, this is for value, I raise". I'm not implying that a raise is bad here, just that there are other things to consider and somehow people just have it tattooed on their brain that I have AK pf I must raise if I'm first in.



Sorry if you got the implication that I think I play perfectly post flop, I don't, not even close. That doesn't mean I can't have an edge though. Certainly this will happen from time to time.

Also, raising pf doesn't guarantee people won't flop a set on me, so it really doesn't matter if I had raised or not. Maybe it would if a couple of your opponents will fold something like 66 or < to a standard raise, but in small stakes (and not arguing if it is or is not the right play, just stating) I don't typically find that to be the case.

So sure if I limp then they're "guaranteed" to limp those pairs they might have folded, but then for them to get all the money, they have to hit their set, I have to hit something(most likely better than just tp) and it didn't get re-raised pf somewhere else along the way.

raising pf doesn't guarantee people won't flop a set on me, so it really doesn't matter if I had raised or not.

Apply this to a situation where you have AA. Then you might start understanding.

By getting more in preflop you win more for every time their low pair misses the flop.
In very basic terms:


LIMPING
8/9 = They miss and you take a tiny pot.
1/9 = They hit and take your stack.

RAISING
8/9 = They miss and you take a medium sized pot.
1/9 = They hit and take your stack.

I'm not gonna be one of the guys getting on you for no raising AK. I'll throw my 2 cents in and be done with it. Not raising AK preflop from EP tends to be the product of short term results in which the player has caught a streak of gettin whiffed c-bets reraised or sets stacking them, etc. Raising AK for value in a NL game against players searching for implied odds in the back and therefore willing to make looser calls is just +EV. I don't find the limp that offensive though.

What I do find atrocious is your post flop play here.



Did you notice how big the pot got? You should not be limping AK if you're going to play TPTK this fast in a multi-way reraised pot. Why do you raise here w/ only a 10q really drawing that live at you and you drawing dead to most hands that are gonna call? (Say MP2 is a calling donk and then analysis here doesn't mean anything) But seriously, why did you bet? You aren't folding better hands and you should be folding all the hands you have value against. You're just stuck at the turn so whatever. but the combination of the preflop limp and the spewage on the flop is bad.

I think the hand is played absolutely horribly pf to turn.

Preflop: Must raise as covered by Zach and simo

Flop: Have no clue what ur trying to accomplish here. This play will definitely lose you money over time. People don't limp w/ KJ or K7 sooted or 77 for that matter? Raising preflop potentially eliminates KJ or K7. You lead and get min raised and reraise after you limped pf. I just seriously don't get it.

Turn: Same as flop you wanna keep the pot small and now its huge makes no sense to me.

I definitely wouldn't suggest keeping this strategy because overtime your gonna get stacked. I don't care about the results.

First we'll just have to agree to disagree about pf, and that's no big deal.

Second, if you're gonna say my line sucks for x,y,z reasons at least throw in an alternative or two.

So you guys don't like the re-raise on the flop? What do we do call and c/f turn UI, that is so bad I can't even begin to explain.

This was a limped pot so there are tons of hands that could be going on here. Most Kx are raising, of which only 2 beat me. Set of J's or set of 7's, I'm gonna assume most people raise K's and J's so we can discount those.

So pretty much does my opponent have K7, KJ, or 77? Does a raise indicate this? Sure it could, but it could also represent a much wider range of hands including any Kx, QT, Jx, bluff. So that's why I re-raised was to try and find out what kind of hand the villains had. If they push I assume I'm beat and am done with the hand.

The confusing part is the CO cold calling $6 then folding to my re-raise, I assume he had QT and MP2 had a weaker K.

I'm fine with putting money into the pot when I have something and have more information of my opponents hands. I'm not fine with doing OOP w/ A high, of course a standard raise won't make the pot big necessarily, but it gives more out there to go far.



Sorry just one last statement here, "must raise" poker is certainly not a game of absolutes and I don't think there's many situations if any that are considered a "must".

Well, it's going to be hard for most people to think of what they picture as an optimal line considering your preflop limp. I still have better lines though.

As I said, you call here on the flop for the reason I stated above, reraising here folds most hands you're beating and gets calls from the hands you're not beating. Pretty straight forward right? The CO calling the reraise should concern you enough to play this hand careful and see what happens on the turn. You could end up checking and seeing a bet and a reraise in front of you. Now C/Fing isn't that bad is it? You could see a bet, a call, and a nice price to continue w/ the hand on w/ TPTK.



If I'm sitting w/ any of the hands I'm beating you with, i'm not reraising you on the flop since you have less than the pot left in your stack. i'm fairly confident I can extract that w/ position and 2 streets left. So basically on the flop, you've dictate your playing for stacks since most players are going to stick you on the turn and or river.



You really did put a lot of money in this pot not really knowing where your opponents are. I'm fairly confident you stacked some one w/ kq, but I would be very confident in saying this is spewage over the long run.

I actually prefer reraising the flop (as I stated in my first post). Any king can min-raise us on that flop, as can any jack. QT might min-raise to try and see a free river. Hell, even A7 could min raise for information.

I don't really like calling with TPTK against 2 opponents. If an ace hits on the turn the straight hit. If a king hits on the turn a set or 2 pair has made a boat.


First we'll just have to agree to disagree about pf, and that's no big deal.

When you get one or two differing opinions, then ok. When you get every single reply saying you have to raise, don't you think you might possibly be mistaken?


poker is certainly not a game of absolutes and I don't think there's many situations if any that are considered a "must".

Ah, that old phrase. Similar to the old "well if everyone played the same there'd be no skill in it".

Obviously you don't have to raise preflop. You could fold. You could move allin. Everyone else bar you in this thread is stating that the play that maximises your overall equity in this hand is to make a reasonable raise preflop. Roy Cooke's article does not apply to this situation.