Hello All,

I'm fairly new to the poker scene.

What I have done, however, is read anything I can get my hands on. I've read Super System 2, Dan Harrinton's series, Sklansky, Phil Gordon. I've played about 15,000 hands now (give or take), and I've tried applying what I've learned from these books, but my results have been dissapointing.

I am happy that I am correctly getting my money in the pot when I have the best of it, but I end up getting sucked out on a lot by folks that "shouldn't" be in the pot based on the bets that were made.

I guess what I'm really wondering is should I bother reading these books, and applying the lessons within, to the micro limit games? The plays seem to get lost on the other players. I'm just not sure what the optimum way to build a bankroll at this level is.

I prefer NL over Limit since the no fold'em behavior seems even worse in the Limit games, and it seems to be a rarity that the hand that is leading early on ever actually wins...

Ramble ends now.

nothing you read applies to micro-limit, just wait for the nuts and push all in.

In the micro limit world of online poker you'll find the skill level is very low. You may make the right play at the right time but a beginner probably wont see the play you're attempting to make.

EI: Lets say you're playing a micro limit ring game and you come across a raise and a re-raise. You "could" attempt a push to use a squeeze play but you should realize that these new players don't see that this is a big raise they just see money and fun.

Hope I helped.

-The Bwaves

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You may be misunderstading, the greatest player ever, really suck, really unlucky, or...

we don't know

General whining won't help.

Hahah back the bus up man

I really didn't want to come off as whining. I understand how some of you long time readers/posters can get jaded to these sorts of questions, but I really was just wondering if I should avoid any tactical bluffs at the micro limit level. The example of the squeeze play was perfect because I've seen many squeeze plays attempted, but the result is usually a three way all-in at this level.

An example of what I'm talking about would be this... with JJ I raised 6BB in order to, hopefully, get a single caller. I got 5... Not quite the action/reaction I was looking for.

I find myself playing micro-limit often as I start new online-sites. I like to buy-in or find freebies for $50 and play the lowest limits and work my BR up. As far as ML play goes, I have a very different strategy than I do any other limit.

I will play a pretty passive style and try to flop big and take down as many suckers as I can at the time. The key here is to have a LOT of patience. I will even call the BB with KK from front positions and see what happends. If I get a raise from a player and it gets half to fold I will reraise substantially to then isolate the field. Two raises will still seem to get even the bad players out when it's strong enough. You should either then have taken the pot or get called with whatever whackjob of a hand they go with.

You don't want to push with even high pocket pairs in my experience in micro because you will face far to much action even with all-in bets. If there is one thing I learned about poker in my few years of experience is that there are so many variables to consider that even changing limits can completely change the style you need to play. I have found that playing it slow and just waiting for the absolute nuts will win you quite a bit of money and build your BR up fast.

In cash games work the tables, what you want to find is a table of limpers and then high action after the flop. It's pretty easy to spot. Find the table with High % going to the flop and a high pot average. Watch a few rounds and make sure this is the type of table we are talking about. Then be careful what you play. When you have the nuts go after it and don't worry about chasing people off. You probably won't. They are there to blow some money and have fun.

Once you make 2X or 3X your initial investment leave the table and come back with the table minimum again. That's a good management strategy that will keep you in the black in case you accidently miscall.

One very important thing to note is that you better not plan on using this strategy as you move up in limits or you will be eaten alive.

figure out why this is wrong.

that'll be a big step forward.

You want this.

Read SSHE if you haven't already. Depending on the limits you play, you should easily crush the games if you apply most concepts in this book.

I think we need a stickied thread that explains why people not folding is good.

Anytime a newb comes here, they should be forced to read it before being allowed in the strat forums.

Just my opinion.

It gets tiring explaining it over and over again.

- Zach

I'd be interested to see how much Morton's Theorem actually affects low limit holdem. I think it may be more than people realise.

First of all,

Thank you for all the responses. It would appear that I was seriously out playing myself. I have stopped playing aggressive at this limit unless I have the nuts (or very close), and it's working very very well for me. I'm climbing back out of my funk.

As to the "no folding", yes I do understand why it's better that they don't fold. I think the big missunderstanding occurs when you make plays that are supposed to have your drawing opponents fold to take down a pot quickly.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about...

You flop the bottom set, but there is a flush/straight draw on board. You are in the lead now, but you want to take down the pot quickly to avoid the drawing hand becoming a made hand. I think these actions stick out most in my own mind because they happen at a time that ends up putting me out of a tournament, and it makes me take pause.

Yes I also understand that if I bet enough that the opponent calls, and draws to the hand he/she made a mistake. This is still a source of frustration to newer players. I have spent a lot of time reading, and trying to segregate the action from the result. Doing that is not as easy as everyone seems to think it is

I used to have a lot of trouble with this. Just try to remember about the last time you sucked out on someone else. Last night I hit a two outer on some guy to knock him out on the bubble for a huge pot. Awesome. I'm sure he didn't feel the same way.

Realizing that it works both ways definitely helped me cope with losses.

It's definitely not easy to get this through your head when you are new to the game.

Understanding long run concepts is very hard, especially if you happen to be running cold initially, and losing a lot to draws.

It's just something you learn and understand more as you play more hands, I suppose.

************

Simo,

What is Morton's Theorum?

google it, very good reading

basically that somtimes in lhe all the bad calls that the other players make create a situation where thier calls are not all that bad, and that every call after a certain point youde rather them fold even though they dont have odds to call. sort of.

**** him.

I had this theory a while ago on this board.

I got mocked...

LOL.

Ie. Betting TPTK into a field where their combined draws make the bet -EV... is it possible?

maybe. i dont remember everything and there was a lot of math i just ignored.

i think thats what he was thinking at first. but then it got toned down to very occasionally youde make more money if some of them folded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morton's_theorem

here is what the guy wrote to rgp originally
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.gamblin...b2068000df84361

I think there really is something to this. If so, it would certainly help to explain why microlimits are difficult to beat. I wish I had the time (or the patience, or the true desire) to study it in more detail.
I came across it a couple of months ago and have read quite a bit about it, but noone seems to know the significance of the finding - not even Morton himself seemingly.

nonetheless, the player should still bet assuming he has an equity edge, but perhaps it lends support to the idea of trying to isolate more in cetain situation thru c/r'ing or 3 betting pf and flop.

I'm not claiming any different view - yet.
<-- Okay, this isn't necessary here, but I like it.

no, there is very little to it. these situations arise infrequently.

How do you know? I'm not disagreeing, but I don't think it's possible to accurately state that there's little to it without some kind of proof.

this topic was beat to death on two plus two.

and from the wikipedia page

Surely this would support my thoughts? Morton believes Sklansky's FTOP rarely applies in multiway pots.

Oh, and do you have links to the 2+2 threads on this? I'd be interested to read through them.

i have a ton of threads from there bookmarked, ill look through them and check when/if i ever go home.


and this all supports all the sklansky/miller stuff in sshe about protecting your hand. and about how the value of suited/connected cards goes way up in loose games (play any two suited from the blinds with three limpers which is you taking advantage of this effect, sort of).

my understanding of it is that very rarely you would rather someone fold than make a call in a multiway pot, even though thier call is still bad. i think its because someone with odds to call (like an oesd) and you are splitting up the money so you make more when you split less and take more of his (he makes less with every fold, so therefore each bet he puts in kills his equity a little more the less people who are in the pot putting money in, he'de rather draw for free).

if you are going to search 2+2 search also for 'schooling'.

Cypher,

The information above is useful in terms of poker skillz..... But the best way to build a BR at that level is through bonuses.... Going to sites where you play a certain amount of raked hands and you get a bonus is very very EV.

Microlimits.... say .25/.50 ... say you have to play 1000 hands for the bonus of 100 bucks... Let's also assume you're running well and beating the game for 10BB/100 hands.... that means you've made .50*10*10 = 50 bucks in the last 1000 hands.... but with your bonus you've made 150 bucks... BOOM.

Find some more sites... rinse, repeat ......soon you'll have an o.k. BR.

The real trick is to make sure you learn the game while doing this because just because you have the BR to play a certain level doesn't mean you should.....

Cheers,
Silly

Send me a PM if you want some sites to start with....

tru dat