Playing some live 1/2 NL last night after work, sitting with about $250. I had been playing tight for the only half hour that i'd been there, when this hand came down.

Im UTG+2 with AhQh , raise to $12. I had just raised the hand before with KK and the guy to my left apparently gave me "mad respect" folding his Ace Jack, so im under the impression he thinks im a very tight player (which is what I want).

So i raise to $12 with AhQh and he gives me the once-over look and decides just to call, one other guy calls and we see a flop of Ad Kh 2c, i fire out $20 into the $38 or so pot, the guy to my left thinks for a minute or so then announces raise, he's got me covered by a bit and im sitting with about $220, he makes it $60 total, next guy folds and now its heads up between me & him.

I'm obviously extremely concerned now and I know im either way ahead or way behind (obv), if I just call the $60 and dont improve on the turn im going to be facing a bit bet for sure, but that might be ok since i really like my hand. Realistically the only thing im afraid of is AK or a set, not really sure why he would raise so much on the flop, but after some consideration I decide i'm not heavily invested into the pot, and if he's putting in $60 against a known tight player, theres no way he can't beat my TPTK. I fold the hand face up and he's like, do you wanna see it? Sure I say, and he flips up KK for middle set. I was 6% to win after the flop. Everyone at the table is going nuts on how I can fold that but I didnt think too much of it. I know the majority of the players at 1/2 would go broke there but thats why I play it, its easy if you dont mind grinding it out.

So i'd like to hear some comments, is this a common situation to fold, what other factors would lead you into calling on the flop, or even re-raising to really see where you're at?

- Jimmy

First, never show when you make a big laydown. You're just putting a target on your back. They know you will fold TP now and will bluff you more often. You'll be viewed as weak-tight.

The only time I do that is if I'm playing on the cheap with friends and I'm helping them to learn the game, showing them that, yes, it IS possible to fold decent hands.

Your flop bet is kinda weak. If the pot's at $40 you should bet about $30, not $20. Also you have to think that you're ahead at this point. AK, KK, AA would've raised pf, and A2 would've dumped. 22 is possible however.

I would have gone for the C/R. This way you get more information and can safely dump the hand if you're 3-bet. Suppose he's the one who bets $20 and you pop it to $60. Well, you've got a good idea of where you stand if he pushes or if he flat calls. Both indicate a lot of strength. If he just calls, you can then c/fold or c/call the turn depending on how much he bets.

Because he was the one who raised, he could have any number of holdings - any suited ace, basically. AJ and AT do this to you just like KK. I wouldn't discount AJ and AT because you've raised your second consecutive pot. He'll be more liberal in his callings now. He could also be reraising with a hand like TT or JJ, figuring your hand for nothing more than a weak continuation bet.

Pf raise is high, but 6x BB may have been standard at your table.

now thats a hell of a response, thank you! and yes 6-8x bb is the standard where i play, all the time. now when I think about it I would prefer a c/r on the flop, thanks.

The way I see it these days is that people need to switch their mentality.

Before, people looked for reasons to fold.

In a world of super LAGs as made popular by many successful players and especially live, you need to find reasons to call. These decisions need to be based on your opponent's range, betting habbits, propensity to bluff, etc etc etc.

why ?

So you can get folds from everyone when you have KK ?
Or are you planning on stealing lots $3 blinds from EP?

As far as the hand, please don't post results.
Whether or not I c/r and/or fold the flop would depend on my read of villain.
A c/r would be highly unlikely; however, as a normal bet from anyone would be $30, and you raise to $90... now if he re-raises the pot is $220 + his raise, so your odds would be sweet for the $130 or so you'd have left.

How are the odds sweet when Hero is virtually drawing dead to hands that 3-bet this flop? AA, KK, AK, 22, A2. Do you think QJ and stone bluffs push this enough to justify a call? You certainly can't include semi-bluffs that are flush draws.

Unless Villain is a maniac or fool - which he probably isn't, as he folded AJ pf to a raise - you have to fold if he pushes after your raise.

I don't think I said villain pushes the flop.
Say villain calls our c/r. And say we are HU, which will lower the pot oddsand favor your argument.

So pot is $40 preflop + 2x $90 post flop = $220

We have $130 left.

Turn: not a Q, not an Ace.

our move.

Bet $80 and fold to a raise?
Push?
check/fold?

I was responding to this,



Hero has just $130 remaining after his raise; therefore, any further raise by villain is essentially a push. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Anyhow, if he just calls then I am done with this hand. There are simply too many hands that are consistent with his play and make sense for him to be trapping with. Check/fold.

If there's a flush draw out there, though, then I may go broke.

Exactly. Since the OP isn't playing any form of deep stack poker, your c/r would commit you to the pot. Something on T.V. like teh HSP is a great place to play deep stack poker, 1-2NL really isn't. Unless of course there is no cap on the buy in and people buy in deep, but in this variation you would clearly be comitted.

1) Don't say the result of the hand. Makes the post pointless.

2) $60 raise is only 3x your bet... it's an average raise.

3) Hindsight is perfect. I have no clue whether this is +EV in the long term. If I hadn't seen the result, I would say that you need to call and re-evaluate river. This is a low limit live game and those are juicy. If you keep folding that hand your going to get run over. What was villan's image?

4) Villan played the hand badly. I would sit with him whenever I saw him at the casino.

Depends on the type of player. Im not going to fold to someone who constantly raises weak holdings. Im also, not going to let TPTK go, as easily as you did.

ok, I see.
Back to the hand

Say he min re-raises to $150.
Now pot is $280. And your call is $60.
And you fold?
Or if he leads $60 on the turn, you fold getting $280 : 60 ?

That is really relying a lot on the information provided.
No way your read would be that good against a stranger.

as Corporation said, you aren't deep enough to waste the bet on a c/r if you plan on folding to resistance.

What hand then is he 3-betting with, min-raise or a push, that doesn't crush us? I don't see villain doing this with AJ or AT. Or QJ often enough. Or QQ. AJ may be more believable if the board were AKT, as villain would also have a gutshot.

We just have TP. And on this board TP is destroyed.

Also villain is not a stranger. We have a read on him, as limited as it may be - we know he can fold AJ to a pf raise. He has an idea of what he is doing. I'd be far more inclined to push this flop if, on the hand prior, villain had reraised our KK, we pushed, and he called with AJ.

The point of the C/R is obviously to win the pot on the flop. If he continues with the hand, and he is a solid enough player, then I am WB. Even odds of 4-1 on the turn can't entice me to call because I am likely drawing dead. But like I said, with a flush draw out I wouldn't be so quick to surrender this pot.

So yes, as unbelievable as it seems, I would fold TP on a turn getting 4-1. And I would fold it on the flop getting slightly better than 4-1.

I disagree with this. While I'm not fond of showing cards in general and big laydowns specifically when there's uncertainty, I do think that it's fine to show when you "know" you're beat in order to encourage the other player to show that your read was correct and for image purposes. There are times/games where showing will establish you as weak-tight...and I don't show in those instances.

However, I want the other players to fear me and my reading ability. Over a week in Vegas this summer, I showed big laydowns in several instances at Caesar's. I got rewarded when my opponents showed that I was in fact crushed. The confidence boost that this gives you and the respect that it can earn you are remarkable.

Oh, and to be clear, I'm not sure that this (TPTK in this circumstance) quite qualifies in my book as a big laydown worthy of showing.

it's silly to invest in a c/r when leading out does the same thing for a ton less risk. In order to get him to fold the hands he bets the flop with, you're gonig to have to make a strong c/r. Ocaasionally, he'll bet with air and you pick up a few extra chips. A lot of those times however he checks behind.

please don't base anything on one fold of AJ.
this hand is about pure math and card combinations and any read provided of a single hand should heavily weighted with an aggregate rea of a typical live player at these limits. Credibility Theory is your friend

read dependent hand

tight guy? dump the hand.
no real read? call and re-evaluate turn. Ax hands (other than AK) often raise to "define their hand" in this situation. folding is not terrible, but if you fold, do not show here.
loose retard? calling and check-pushing a safe turn or pushing right now are both valid options (depends on how aggressive he is).

i don't particularly like c/r for "informational" purposes because:

1) if you c/r then c/f the turn, the damage it does to your future c/r credibility forces you to c/r only when you have a real lock on the hand. this isn't good, because we'd also like to use the c/r to end the hand when we have a good hand like TPTK vs. a flush draw or str8 draw board and the volume of other people in the hand is high (ensuring a bet will come from somewhere). if people have seen you c/r then fold later, they will not only call you with draws, but also middle pair, and you will have a tough time figuring out where you are (especially if the draw completes) in hands where a credible c/r gets you information when you REALLY need it.

i think people overuse informational raising - treating it as the primary purpose of raising, and not a secondary benefit, will often lead to getting progressively bad information the longer you sit at the table.

2) as other people already mentioned, stacks aren't deep enough to fold this if a c/r gets called. you could argue that there is no hand you're ahead of that calls a c/r, but sometimes you'd be surprised. do you get called by a worse hand 20% of the time (the approximate odds)? hey, it IS the 1-2 game.

bottom line, don't bloat the pot from out of position if you plan on folding to good odds later, ESPECIALLY in a WA/WB situation.


by the way, his folding AJ in the situation you described is not a big deal. you raised from UTG+1, which typically takes a strong hand to do. the other guy is still in early position with the rest of the table left to act. his folding AJ in middle or late position might mean that he's giving you mad respect - but his folding AJ in early position only means that he is tight from that position, and doesn't necessarily say anything about what he thinks of you. lots of players will fold AJ in early position against another early position raiser, figuring that they might be dominated on top of having to act from bad position with a classic "trap hand" if other people come in.

yeah, I thought it was standard.

great post nomad.

I think there's a natural desire to label all play by anyone as poor. Why, exactly, do you think the villain played this hand badly?

I think villain probably played the hand badly by not re-raising pre-flop. If this 6x business really is the "standard" raise (I have a problem with going along with a big raise just cause of the crowd), then it's likely that more people will come along. We'd prefer to not play KK with a big pot, multiway, and OOP. As for his raise on the flop, I think that's personal preference and valid for mixing it up purposes. In this particular case, if he'd waited to raise the turn though, he probably could've gotten all of the OP's chips.

Also, let me echo the crowd that folding AJ to an EP raise is pretty standard.

The more I think about showing a big laydown here, the more I realize that A2 would be the only hand worth mucking face-up. If you're folding AK here, you're a super-nit, and if you showed that, you certainly will not get respect.


Very well put. I certainly love getting information from my raises, but I'm mostly raising in spots where I think I've got equity (whether it be of the real, implied, or fold flavor).