$2/$4 four

Two folds to SB who limps, I raise in BB with A-10, SB calls.

(4 sb) 10 - 4 - 3

SB bets, I raise, SB calls.

(4 bb) Q

SB checks, I bet, SB raises, I call.

(8 bb) Q

SB bets, I raise, ...


SB is average, not a donk or anything, though he is new to the table for < 10 hands. On the one hand, I want the info, but I feel that the raise can have significant value sometimes.

I can't say that I would fold to a three-bet. I love info because I tend to rely on notes a lot short-handed.

Given that, is the raise no good?

Aseem

I think I like it.

At the river, you are now beating two pair holdings that you didnt beat at the flop and turn (T4,T3,43). You also beat or split every T holding except ofcourse QT. Hands that donk the flop don't contain a Q very often. I think QT would go for the c/r. TT seems unlikely, just like other pp's. I think even 44 and 33 would raise preflop no? A raise for value seems in order.

So yeah, I'm cool with it.

I'm not convinced that a raise has value here- I'm having a hard time putting SB on anything that you beat (other than a bluff) when he raises the turn. If he has just a ten, his turn raise is a pretty aggressive play, since if he was ahead on the flop, that Q is likely to have helped you. A reasonable player is probably mucking T4, T3, or 43 preflop, so I doubt he got counterfeited by the river (and if he did, he might not call a raise anyway).

I think you should just call; I doubt you're ahead even close to 50% of the time (let alone the 60-65% you need to raise/call) when you raise the river and he calls.

I call down this river.

What are we hoping for with the raise?
In my opinion, his play often implies all or nothing.

And when the ole "win 1 or lose 2" situation arrises in these situations, I usually call down the funky bets.

I don't think we gain enough value to warrant the risk.


Agreed.


--cm

Ok, I don't think I can put up much of a fight. I'm not entirely convinced it's wrong, but I clearly see your points.

If we were to use an action ratio, maybe it would be call 75%, raise 25% or maybe even 80/20 or 70/30.

I raised instinctively and SB called and mucked 10-4, so at the time I felt great for the brilliant raise but then wasn't sure. Glad I posted.

Thanks,
Aseem

P.S. We should really use action ratios more. This game isn't absolute. Do y'all think 75/25 is too high raise? 80/20 right? etc.

That's the hand you gain value from.

Name the others.

And then your action ratios can be determined.

nh



--CM

Sure, 10-3 and 3-4 will very often play the same way. In the games I play in, however, I think SB will very often have just a bare 10 if SB is on the lag side.

I think 75/25 or 80/20 is pretty reasonable.

Aseem

I have have expected T4, T3, 43 to have all folded preflop
Who open limps with these hands out of position?
Dang, we play with bad opponents!




I could see SB playing the flop like this with a Ten.
But would he check raise the turn when then Q hits?

The check raise is what makes me think all-or-nothing. as opposed to just the Ten.



Maybe 90/10?


--cm

all you guys that posted, none of you fold the turn? Unless I read this guy like a maniac, I'd fold the turn to a check-raise.

This is four-handed.... blind battle.... we have a pretty freaking strong hand for such a situation. Folding is waaay -EV.

Aseem

I would also like to think that the guy raising could have picked up the draw with either a KJ or, J9. It is a more advanced sneaky play, but for those 2 extra hands to add, and the fact that if the c/r misses his draw, he will still bet out, but I doubt he would call the raise with jack high. I have seen it before, but not likely. He probably would still call with King high though, lol. And yes, I have seen worse.

i don't raise the river because even a decent player has a queen here decently often, and there aren't a ton of hands we're beating.

unless this is a raise/fold situation, i'm not sure its a winning raise.

But the thing is, I feel like a non-maniac might occasionally not even three-bet Qx on that river if the x is really weak, assuming it's not boated of course. I admittedly may be way off here, I just know that I've seen similar things where a player will just auto click call.

(I'm thinking of the same reason people check behind very quickly when they should be value betting on the river... you know the psychological mentality I'm talking about?)

Aseem

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When SB limps, BB is supposed to raise, no matter what he has.
It's his duty to punish the weak limper.

SB can rightfully assume that BB could have a lot of mediocre hands.
And given this fact, SB will often try to make a play to steal the pot from BB.

This is why you don't fold your 2nd pair in this situaiton.

--cm

FINALLY AN ANSWER I WAS LOOKING FOR.

Ty coran