I heard sometime ago before I paid any attention that Pos was most important preflop in BLANK and post flop in BLANK.
What did I hear and why/
I really forgot.
now, it might be most important for the same game both pre and post, but if you had to put NL in one slot and limit in the other... do it!
Pre: Limit
Post: NL
sounds right.
Preflop:
Limit: Wasting Bets in EP that you have to call 1 more for after a LP raise add up with marginal holdings. In LP you have a much better idea of you implieds odds potentiental post flop.
NL: yeah, you waste bets in EP, but you get so much more from post flop play that a lower percentage would be wasted coming in with marginal hands too much
Post Flop:
seems obvious.
Full Version: Position
i like it doggy style
and i think you are right
and i think you are right
QUOTE (antistuff @ Wednesday, August 30th, 2006, 1:00 PM) 
i like it doggy style
do you wear knee pads?
QUOTE (Actuary @ Wednesday, August 30th, 2006, 1:02 PM)
do you wear knee pads?
i have a very fuzzy rug
[/hijack]
I think you are right Actuary, but I have no mathematical basis for it.
In NL you can eliminate positional disadvantages with taking the lead pf 3-betting, etc, and I find that donking is actually quite effective in NL.
In LHE, preflop is key because that is where a LOT of mistakes are made in EP.
I think you are right Actuary, but I have no mathematical basis for it.
In NL you can eliminate positional disadvantages with taking the lead pf 3-betting, etc, and I find that donking is actually quite effective in NL.
In LHE, preflop is key because that is where a LOT of mistakes are made in EP.
it's the opposite, imo. preflop decisions don't matter nearly as much in LHE; maximizing value postflop is how you make money in that game. and one can negate positional disadvantage postflop in NL by shoving, check-raising all-in, etc.
assuming deep stack NL (100 BB and above), the implied odds negate most preflop decisions, no? Making any two just about playable.
QUOTE (mk @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 6:39 AM)
it's the opposite, imo. preflop decisions don't matter nearly as much in LHE; maximizing value postflop is how you make money in that game. and one can negate positional disadvantage postflop in NL by shoving, check-raising all-in, etc.
I think Pos is for both.. NL and LHE and pre and post
LHE - post flop like MK said, and you want to raise after post flop when the value is increased more BB's.
in NL - having postion is key because you are always in a position to steal pots, or to save yourself the most amount of chips by folding to earlier agressors battling each other.
QUOTE (mk @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 9:39 AM)
it's the opposite, imo. preflop decisions don't matter nearly as much in LHE; maximizing value postflop is how you make money in that game. and one can negate positional disadvantage postflop in NL by shoving, check-raising all-in, etc.
preflop is incredibly huge in lhe.
nl you can play any two if the stacks are deep enough.
I thought this was a common quote, but I just can't recall the order. But it's certainly Limit for one and NL for the other.
QUOTE (Actuary @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 10:49 AM)
I thought this was a common quote, but I just can't recall the order. But it's certainly Limit for one and NL for the other.
I recall the thread where we had this argument, but I don't recall the conclusions that were made. I think Smash had some good input. Oh, and I think there are some recent articles in CP that deal with this topic. I'll try to dig them up.
QUOTE (Zach6668 @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 8:36 AM)
nl you can play any two if the stacks are deep enough.
Wrong.
QUOTE (Zach6668 @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 11:36 AM)
preflop is incredibly huge in lhe.
nl you can play any two if the stacks are deep enough.
nl you can play any two if the stacks are deep enough.
QUOTE (Sluggo @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 3:34 PM)
Wrong.
What if we're playing the new game that I just invented? I call it “Infinite No Limit.” Here's how it works:
Every player's stack is infinite but all bets must be finite. Otherwise, all normal rules of NL apply (so there's no going "all in," but you can bet something arbitrarily high like Graham's Number or something). The victor at the end of a session has the highest net profit, obviously.
So, if we're playing Infinite No Limit, Sluggo, would you play any two?
I enjoy impossible hypotheticals!
QUOTE (Sluggo @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 3:34 PM)
Wrong.
You really fail to contribute anything.
I contribute the truth. Just not the reasoning behind it.
No, I would not play any two (assuming all players are relatively skilled).
Also, the example would more closely ape reality if there were different degrees of winningness proportional to the amount won. If not, then the strategy for playing NLHE would be significantly different.
QUOTE (LongLiveYorke @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 12:49 PM)
Every player's stack is infinite but all bets must be finite. Otherwise, all normal rules of NL apply (so there's no going "all in," but you can bet something arbitrarily high like Graham's Number or something). The victor at the end of a session has the highest net profit, obviously.
So, if we're playing Infinite No Limit, Sluggo, would you play any two?
I enjoy impossible hypotheticals!
So, if we're playing Infinite No Limit, Sluggo, would you play any two?
I enjoy impossible hypotheticals!
No, I would not play any two (assuming all players are relatively skilled).
Also, the example would more closely ape reality if there were different degrees of winningness proportional to the amount won. If not, then the strategy for playing NLHE would be significantly different.
QUOTE (Sluggo @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 11:34 AM)
Wrong.
for all intents and purposes, you lose much less playing "any two" preflop in NL than in Limit, assuming a solid post flop game.
in NL you stand to recoup more of those lost preflop limps when you hit a hand
Yes, especially in position.
Ok, sluggo, I know where you are coming from.
When I said that, I forgot the point of the thread was the importance of position, but I was just saying that to argue mk's statement saying that LHE was less crucial preflop.
Actuary prety much summed up the point I clearly didn't make
Also, I never assume any of my opponents are the least bit skilled, which is why, if the stacks were deep enough, I think you probably could play any two OOP, but that's just theoretical nonsense.
- Zach
When I said that, I forgot the point of the thread was the importance of position, but I was just saying that to argue mk's statement saying that LHE was less crucial preflop.
Actuary prety much summed up the point I clearly didn't make
Also, I never assume any of my opponents are the least bit skilled, which is why, if the stacks were deep enough, I think you probably could play any two OOP, but that's just theoretical nonsense.
- Zach
So Sluggo, you agree with Pre: Limit and Post: NL?
QUOTE (Actuary @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 6:15 PM)
So Sluggo, you agree with Pre: Limit and Post: NL?
I agree with this, as opposed to the opposite.
QUOTE (LongLiveYorke @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 12:49 PM)
(so there's no going "all in," but you can bet something arbitrarily high like Graham's Number or something).
I enjoyed this.
QUOTE (Actuary @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 3:15 PM)
So Sluggo, you agree with Pre: Limit and Post: NL?
Yes.
Just going to add my opinion, because...well I want to.
LHE seems to me, a preflop game. Thus, when you start with better preflop hands, and play better preflop poker, you will be usually a winning player.
NLHE seems to be a postflop game, where sometimes, its a race to see who stack off their opponent first. Because implied odds are more of a factor in NLHE, hands that are unplayable in EP LHE, can be played in NLHE, depending on circumstances.
LHE seems to me, a preflop game. Thus, when you start with better preflop hands, and play better preflop poker, you will be usually a winning player.
NLHE seems to be a postflop game, where sometimes, its a race to see who stack off their opponent first. Because implied odds are more of a factor in NLHE, hands that are unplayable in EP LHE, can be played in NLHE, depending on circumstances.
QUOTE (Zach6668 @ Thursday, August 31st, 2006, 10:36 AM)
preflop is incredibly huge in lhe.
nl you can play any two if the stacks are deep enough.
nl you can play any two if the stacks are deep enough.
I don't think so. Neither do Jen Harman or Richard Brodie.
QUOTE (Richard Brodie @ Monday, Sept 4, 2006, 10:00 AM)
The other major error I see from No-Limit players who move to Limit is that they fail to play enough hands from the big blind. In a recent tip, Jennifer Harman discussed big blind play in Limit Hold 'em in some detail. She suggested playing a lot of hands from the big blind, including any two cards that can make a straight. Jennifer's an expert player, and you might be better off being a little more selective than she is. But still, you should be playing a lot more hands from the blinds in Limit than you would in No-Limit.
Think of it in terms of odds. In a Limit game, you'll be getting 3.5 to 1 to call a single raise from the big blind (two small bets from the raiser, your big blind, and the small blind). Plus, in many games, you can count on the pre-flop raiser to follow up with a bet on the flop, whether he hit or not. That gives you odds of 4.5 to 1. If the raiser is an aggressive player in late position, you can't give him credit for much of hand to start with, so, even a hand like 5-6 off-suit is often good enough to play from the big blind.
In No-Limit, you probably want to fold the same hand and wait for a better spot. But this is the type of adaptation you'll need to make if you want to master all forms of poker, including Limit and No-Limit. If you're moving from No-Limit poker to Limit, keep in mind that you're going to be calling opponents down more often and that you're going to want to play many more hands from the big blind.
Think of it in terms of odds. In a Limit game, you'll be getting 3.5 to 1 to call a single raise from the big blind (two small bets from the raiser, your big blind, and the small blind). Plus, in many games, you can count on the pre-flop raiser to follow up with a bet on the flop, whether he hit or not. That gives you odds of 4.5 to 1. If the raiser is an aggressive player in late position, you can't give him credit for much of hand to start with, so, even a hand like 5-6 off-suit is often good enough to play from the big blind.
In No-Limit, you probably want to fold the same hand and wait for a better spot. But this is the type of adaptation you'll need to make if you want to master all forms of poker, including Limit and No-Limit. If you're moving from No-Limit poker to Limit, keep in mind that you're going to be calling opponents down more often and that you're going to want to play many more hands from the big blind.
mk,
isn't that directed at BB play only?
I don't see how if you're allocating the importance of pos pre and post to NL and LHE, how you cant' say Pre: LHE, Post: NL
isn't that directed at BB play only?
I don't see how if you're allocating the importance of pos pre and post to NL and LHE, how you cant' say Pre: LHE, Post: NL
It's pretty simple.
If you play against players who are bad enough, you can play any two, if they are deep enough, and will pay off enough. That's the point. If the implied odds are there, AND they are real, then you can play any two to flop two pair, trips, etc.
- Zach
If you play against players who are bad enough, you can play any two, if they are deep enough, and will pay off enough. That's the point. If the implied odds are there, AND they are real, then you can play any two to flop two pair, trips, etc.
- Zach
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.