PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Hero ($169.50)
UTG ($17.55)
UTG+1 ($14.05)
MP1 ($99)
MP2 ($101.70)
MP3 ($134.70)
CO ($98.50)
Button ($38.35)
SB ($20.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , J .
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $3, 1 fold, Button calls $3, 1 fold, Hero calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2.

Flop: ($12.50) T , A , K (4 players)
Hero bets $7, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls $7, Button folds.

Turn: ($26.50) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $20, MP3 calls $20.

River: ($66.50) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $139.5 (All-In)



Same table, different villain. This is like 10 minutes after my last QJs hand.

nh

now THIS is a perfect overbet play, you bet it strong all the way through which makes it look like you have a vulnerable hand, and push on a complete brick on the river. Very well played to get max value. Flopping straights is what I consider to be a deceptive hand if you play it strong all the way through, I like the overbetting much more in this hand than the other hand. Fastplay is new slowplay!

I like. Your last hand was better for setting the tone than getting paid off. NH.

First of all, I like the flop and turn play. When I flop a straight, I play it almost exactly the same way. Put a nice 2/3'ish (maybe 3/4) pot bet out on the flop to see if anybody likes their hand. If they do, put in a pot-sized bet on the turn. The only difference is that I would bet around the pot here (maybe a little more) on the river. Unless villain has a set (or is a complete donk, which is still possible at these limits), I just don't see how you're going to get called with a 2x pot bet on the river. However, I think two pair would call the pot sized bet.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the overbet, I just think you're going to be a bit more +EV if you don't bet quite so much. Also, with slightly bigger bets on the flop and turn (like $9 on the flop, and then $35 into the resulting $30 on the turn), you're river bet would have been around the size of the pot anyway, and you'd likely get almost any hand that got that far to call. There's a good section in Sklansky's new book that talks about planning out your betting during the hand so that you can "naturally" get all the money on the river.

This is something I was thinking about last night. Sometimes I just look quickly at the pot size and instantly bet 3/4's or whatever it may be.

Then I get to the river, and I figure the guy will call say $30, but I have $38 left, so it's unnatural to get it all in. (Bad example maybe, but I think I make my point).

So yeah, I am going to start thinking a little more like that while I'm actually making these bets here.

And, I found a bunch of PokerShare points the other day, so I ordered the new NLHE: TAP book, although I have several books, and don't read most of them, I really want to read this one, since NL is so new to me.

To avoid being results oriented:
This is how you should probably play the hand IF your opponent accidentally and unknowingly flashed you a set on the flop or turn, but I think you lose a lot of potential value from a big drawing hand here.

On the turn he has to call 20 into a 46 dollar pot. If he has either flush draw, he needs to get 54 more out of you on the river (when he hits) to make it a worthwhile call. This is very likely. You also get no value out of him when he misses. If he has a Q high or J high flush draw, he's also got a gutshot to split.

The turn is the time to overbet. (fwiw, I wouldve bet harder on the flop as well--no point in milking someone with 2nd pair, there's a scary board and you're only getting action from a big 2nd best hand.)

In the cases in which he has two pair or a set, he will still pay off the overbet.


*edit: and by overbet, i do not mean all in. I would bet 25 on the flop. given the 7 dollar bet and call, i would bet 50 on the turn...

What do you think his range is after he calls the flop bet, and turn bet?

I didn't give stats in the OP, but I just checked and I only have 13 hands, so they are useless.

After the flop he can still have a wide range of draws, one-pairs, two-pairs, sets or one of the 9 possible (chopping) straights.

After the turn he's got either some flush draw/str8draw combo, sets, or chopping str8s. (he could have two-pair if he's bad--not that two pair is definitely behind, but you can't play two-pair so passively on that board.)

Given the results he mustve had TT, but I would've thought a set was less likely in that situation given that he played so passively.

The reason I advocate the bigger bets before the river is you've got to give the draws the chance to make a mistake before they miss.

I'd say TT, KK, AA, AK, QJ spades, and possibly AQ and AJ if I hadn't seen the river call (you have to be a special kind of bad to call with top pair to your river bet).

As an aside to the thought that there might be another QJ out there (and the seeming unlikeliness of it), I was in a similar hand the other day. Three people all got their money in on the turn. We all turned over JT to split it three ways.

What flush draw? Qx? Hardly. Also, what straight draws does he have? KQ maybe, KJ is in the same boat.

His range is AT-AK, KT, maybe weak Aces, AA, KK, TT, QJ, which QsJs being the only plausible flush draw, with maybe KQ, KJ.

Given that range, with the overbet on the river, I will almost always get calls out of AA, KK, TT, AK, AT, QJ, maybe even KT, at these limits, and sometimes even Ax with it looking like I'm trying to bully the pot.

I'm not arguing the idea of bigger bets on the flop and turn, but I'm just trying to establish a range for the thread.

- Zach

This guy limped for $1 then called a raise of $2 with no action behind him and 3 others already in....you better believe QXs and JXs are in his range.

MP3 was the guy who raised preflop. He is who we are talking about.

my bizzad

Are we closer on the range then, and the value of the big bet on the end?

I'd bet bigger on the flop and turn, but that's me. I bet I'm LAGier then you.

If you think he's not on a draw (of which we've eliminated only a few (ie JTs, QTs...are still possible)) then overbet the river...

Hmmm...

Yeah, QTs, JTs are definitely possibilities as well.

If I wasn't multitabling, I'd work out some EV calculations based on his range, and see what the best play is... maybe I'll come back to that later.

First of all, I just noticed that while you pushed for 2x the pot, villain isn't as deep and is really only calling a 1.5x pot bet. Given that, I don't mind the overbet as much.

In any event, the majority of your money here is being made when villain has a set or AK. Everything else is just background noise (barring really bad players). At which point it really comes down to reads. How often will the villain lay down a good hand facing lots of heat with a straight on the board (and/or the possibility of a set if he's got AK). If villain is a good player, I like a bet closer to the pot. If he just can't let go of a set, then I like the overbet.

I'm curious what villain had. If it wasn't QJ, then I think he really misplayed the hand.

i actually disagree that the flop and turn are played well. UTG+1 probably missed and he's done unless he's playing Ax suited. Preflop raiser either has something huge on this board or he's done as well. Either way if he hit it huge, he's not folding to any lead, and if he missed it, he's not calling. So you should be trying to build the pot faster from the flop on in case a scare card pops pops for him. I think you bet 12-15 on the flop, which makes the turn bet 35 and you've really tied him to the pot.